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[Music]

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you're in the para cast the gold

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standard of paranormal radio and now

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here's gene Steinberg

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first of all neighbors I'd like to make

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a special shout-out to

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hellofresh for supporting the power cast

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receive $30 off your first week of

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deliveries when you go to hello fresh

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calm and use the offer code power cast

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30 you know before we start an episode

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the power cast please and let's have a

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little chat with our guest or chris and

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i talk about things and we mentioned

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here about the fact that sometimes

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people make extraneous noises like

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moving papers around or moving

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microphones like that this thing and

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then chris started typing now chris has

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a keyboard for his Mac with the loudest

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computer sound the loudest keyboard

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sound that I've ever heard because it's

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a keyboard one of these old fashioned

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mechanical keyboards that he liked the

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sound so much I said yes you can have it

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I have something called an Apple magic

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keyboard that makes really practically

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no sound but Kevin Randall is telling us

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that maybe we should all switch back to

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typewriters like Jim Mosley used to do

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is that what you wanna do Kevin no

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typewriters don't have spellcheck well

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they have these electronic typewriters

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that kind of allow you to correct things

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in certain ways but that was that wasn't

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even what Jim had he had a SEM electric

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typewriter and he'd buy several so when

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he wears out one you'd have one left

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yes but that's 20th century where I've

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moved into the 21st century I have an

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all-in-one computer for with a huge

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massive monitor thing on it and a quiet

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keyboard so I've moved into the 21st

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century well Chris and I have that -

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it's called 27-inch iMac my 32 inches

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it's going to be one up

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show before we get started and talk

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about your new book on the Saqqara

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episode encounter and the desert you see

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folks it's not gonna be about Roswell

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you had some fascinating comments we

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should bring up about that former rock

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star Tom DeLonge who I guess feels that

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he's some kind of expert about the UFO

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mystery and he has this fundraising

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thing that he's going on called true the

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stars which by the way is raised as of

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the last time I checked like over half a

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million dollars and you have to donate a

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minimum of $200 to get involved so

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therefore I could I was gonna add 10

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cents suckers I was gonna put in 10

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cents which is all I could afford

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Chris was gonna put in a nickel but we

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couldn't do it so what happened dollars

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what a bunch of suckers what's your take

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on that Kevin well I'm obviously doing

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something wrong I years and years and

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years doing UFO research and real kind I

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can't play the keyboard meaning an organ

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type thing a little bit please a guitar

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player I don't know how long he's been

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doing UFO research but he clearly is not

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doing it in the right place you look at

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the things he believes and things he

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thinks are true I mean he's saying that

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the the writing the writing found at

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Roswell looked like the Greek writing

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and he shows this i-beam or this H beam

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from the alien autopsy film and I think

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everybody in the world except him knows

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that was a hoax the guys who made it

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said it was a hoax and we're using this

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as somehow we're going to advance UFO

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research I think he'd minute wait a

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minute Kevin yes quote unquote

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he's read all the books so he knows

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everything all the books that's what he

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said there's like there's like 10,000 of

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them I think he's read all the wrong

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books he talks about Zachariah stitch

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and I think some of saccharin station

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stitches things were interesting I'm

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just not sure how grounded they were in

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science but I mean it's the the whole

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thing is just absolutely preposterous

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and I look at the wood the one thing

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that really bugged me and we were

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I was watching the YouTube video of him

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and Joe Rogan talking about this whole

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nonsensical thing we say show this thing

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that has a star a Sun on it I think it's

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a Sumerian and he says you know look

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it's got all the planets of the solar

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system in it even Pluto before Pluto was

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discovered Pluto was discovered they say

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sometimes in the 1950s and somebody

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finally googled it for him and realize

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it was 1930 yeah but but they've labeled

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them all and it's not only the planets

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the major planets in the solar system

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but the dwarf planets as well some of

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them that I haven't were only discovered

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in the last few years

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Makemake for example or the dwarf

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planets out in the in the Kuiper belt

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but there's nothing on that Sumerian I

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think it's some kind of a stamp Sumerian

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stamp that labels them as planets and

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even as part of the solar system may

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have extracted it later from well this

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thing's got a circular runner with rays

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looking like the Sun and here's the

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solar system and here are all the

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planets it's just out or nonsense and I

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don't know why anybody would accept that

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in this guy's raised a half a million

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dollars I should put a doughnut a

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doughnut a donate thing on my blog and

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see if I can raise some money well

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listen we've all done it go ahead and

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give it a try you deserve donations I

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just don't really want to do that I

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wanted it to be kind of free of monetary

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incentive I suppose and then that kind

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of frees me up to take unpopular

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positions which I frequently do because

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they don't want to you know I'm not a

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fender afraid of offending any donors

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outweigh I suppose I just think it's a

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better way to operate I just really

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don't want to put a doughnut doughnut

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how good Lord someday I'm going to learn

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how to speak to English language a

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doughnut tab or link on the on the blog

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maybe it's just I'm too lazy to deal

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with the with the computer things that

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have to do to make that work the HTML

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code that and I'd have to get a PayPal

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account at all of that other nonsense

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simple and simple to do you could do it

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in a half-hour I don't here I don't care

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till let's not worry about it if he

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doesn't want to we want force and if he

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ever decides you know what what the heck

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I'll try it and if people send me

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donations and then I pissed them off and

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they say you know what we want our

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donations back then I'll give it up

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seriously speaking here is Tandy long in

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your view a sincere goofball or is he

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just trying to fleece money from people

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what's his goal is it because he hasn't

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sold a lot of Records lately I think I

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think he truly believes what he's saying

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he's just not done

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the proper research to understand where

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all the pitfalls are I mean things that

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he is saying I think most of us have

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rejected years and years ago and I go

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back to the alien autopsy nonsense I

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mean the guy that created it came out

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and said now we created here's what we

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did and they're still holding that up as

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some kind of well this proves the Greek

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connection to the Roswell crash or

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something

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I think he's sincere on what he believes

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and I think he's making us here in tempt

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but you know I I guess I hearken back to

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the MUFON symposium this year where

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they've did the secret space program and

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they brought in these guys who were

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claiming yeah we're we're time travelers

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and we fought wars on Mars and we were

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involved in that for 20 years and all of

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that nonsense and people were buying it

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so he's tapping into that subculture of

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people who don't seem to care if it's

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true or not as long as it's entertaining

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I suppose well I think it harkens to

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something that myself and and others

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have been noticing and I've been a

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little concerned about over the past

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well definitely five or six years but

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but you know going back 10 12 years and

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that is we're seeing the New Age kind of

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aspect of ufology the the two believers

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are really they're starting to resemble

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a religious movement and it's huge and

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it's gaining steam and people have

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totally thrown

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you know their their belief their

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irrational belief out the window and

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they they've totally I don't know I

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think people are just in this in this

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lala land a complete suspension of

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disbelief and and it's fulfilling some

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sort of quasi religious I don't know

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sort of angst in their in their psyches

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or something none what do you think

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let's wait till our next segment to get

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the answer to that except I'll say I

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think that's happened in the past that

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we've had true believers going on to

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things but we didn't think a serious UF

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horrible organization would be catering

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to that we've got more to come with

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Kevin Randle on his new book his

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encounter in the desert we'll get to

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that in a moment

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with gene and Chris you're in the burger

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we also have swag you know we have all

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Administration we'd like to hear from

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you if you have a comment or question

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about the para cast sent it to news at

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the para cast com

324
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that's news at the para cast dot-com and

325
00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:14,920
don't forget to visit our famous para

326
00:14:22,590 --> 00:14:18,270
cast community forums at forum dot the

327
00:14:25,170 --> 00:14:22,600
podcast.com we've had some terrific

328
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:25,180
episodes lately of after the para cast

329
00:14:30,420 --> 00:14:27,850
by the way available only to subscribers

330
00:14:31,770 --> 00:14:30,430
of the para cast plus we've had for

331
00:14:35,130 --> 00:14:31,780
example continuation of our interview

332
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:35,140
with dr. John B Alexander and last week

333
00:14:41,190 --> 00:14:38,650
we talked to him about reincarnation and

334
00:14:43,170 --> 00:14:41,200
after the power cast a lot of special

335
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:43,180
things going on you never know what's

336
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:44,410
gonna happen next and we don't either

337
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:45,970
that's what makes it so much fun in

338
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,610
order to get after the power of cast you

339
00:14:52,980 --> 00:14:50,320
have to subscribe to the power cast plus

340
00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:52,990
at plus dot the power cast com that's

341
00:14:57,090 --> 00:14:54,910
where you get the info plus dot the

342
00:14:59,190 --> 00:14:57,100
power cast calm low subscription rates

343
00:15:02,550 --> 00:14:59,200
you also get a version of the show free

344
00:15:04,350 --> 00:15:02,560
of the network ads so Kevin Randall

345
00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:04,360
wrote a book called encounter the desert

346
00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:06,670
about the Socorro New Mexico case where

347
00:15:09,510 --> 00:15:07,750
you get to that in a moment

348
00:15:11,580 --> 00:15:09,520
lots of questions about that's a

349
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:11,590
fascinating book but we were talking

350
00:15:16,770 --> 00:15:14,320
about the true believers a rise of the

351
00:15:18,750 --> 00:15:16,780
true believers in UFO research and we're

352
00:15:20,670 --> 00:15:18,760
seeing here that MUFON is catering to

353
00:15:22,980 --> 00:15:20,680
that and what I was going to mention

354
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:22,990
before Kevin answers Chris's question is

355
00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:26,410
we tried to get Jan Harz an of MUFON to

356
00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:29,350
come on the power cast and so far he's

357
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:31,690
only had excuses you had the response to

358
00:15:36,660 --> 00:15:34,510
Chris's comments Kevin I was gonna say

359
00:15:37,980 --> 00:15:36,670
that I thought that the religious

360
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:37,990
aspects of you followed you've been

361
00:15:40,710 --> 00:15:39,490
around almost from the very beginning

362
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:40,720
and you take a look at the earlier

363
00:15:45,060 --> 00:15:42,850
contactee cases and I'm thinking of

364
00:15:47,190 --> 00:15:45,070
George Van Tassel and George Adamski

365
00:15:49,770 --> 00:15:47,200
there was always a religious aspect to

366
00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:49,780
sure and I think that you look at some

367
00:15:55,740 --> 00:15:52,630
of the there were UFO organizations that

368
00:15:57,150 --> 00:15:55,750
were devoted to the contactees you look

369
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:57,160
at some of the earlier scientific

370
00:16:02,250 --> 00:15:59,440
organizations afro in the I cap on I cap

371
00:16:04,590 --> 00:16:02,260
I think main function was to get the

372
00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:04,600
government to investigate UFOs seriously

373
00:16:07,830 --> 00:16:05,150
and get

374
00:16:10,540 --> 00:16:07,840
Congressional hearings and a pro's

375
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:10,550
mission seem to be gathered UFO

376
00:16:14,230 --> 00:16:12,710
information and UFO data and share it

377
00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:14,240
with the membership but there's always

378
00:16:17,530 --> 00:16:16,130
been this religious aspect to it from

379
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:17,540
the very beginning and I think it's I

380
00:16:22,530 --> 00:16:19,610
guess with the rise of the Internet that

381
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:22,540
becomes a more to people like me who

382
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:26,570
look at UFO cases nothing we come in

383
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:28,370
contact with it more than we had in the

384
00:16:33,070 --> 00:16:30,110
past simply because we kind of ignored

385
00:16:35,260 --> 00:16:33,080
the contactees and the religious aspect

386
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:35,270
well it's it'd be like as you pointed

387
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:37,850
out the Internet has brought this from

388
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:41,650
being a niche kind of cult movement or

389
00:16:45,730 --> 00:16:43,970
kind of a conglomeration of movements

390
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:45,740
back in the 50s yeah as the followers of

391
00:16:50,410 --> 00:16:48,410
Daniel Frye the followers of Adamski and

392
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:50,420
then later in the 70s of course you had

393
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:53,120
the the Raelians and in others but but

394
00:16:58,030 --> 00:16:55,370
those were always kind of fringe groups

395
00:16:59,740 --> 00:16:58,040
that were limited in membership what

396
00:17:03,100 --> 00:16:59,750
we're seeing here now is millions of

397
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:03,110
people are buying into these absolute

398
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:05,810
fairy tales that are being spun as fact

399
00:17:12,100 --> 00:17:08,890
that to me is is at the very least

400
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:12,110
troublesome irritating and a little

401
00:17:17,860 --> 00:17:13,910
alarming I've always been of the opinion

402
00:17:19,570 --> 00:17:17,870
that we needed to I guess infused a

403
00:17:22,750 --> 00:17:19,580
scientific method and scientific

404
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:22,760
research into ufology and it seems to

405
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:25,250
always fall on deaf ears I tried to

406
00:17:30,670 --> 00:17:26,690
suggest you know we got we need to

407
00:17:33,610 --> 00:17:30,680
improve the standards by which we review

408
00:17:36,580 --> 00:17:33,620
cases and elevate those standards and

409
00:17:39,070 --> 00:17:36,590
gather data properly and carefully

410
00:17:40,990 --> 00:17:39,080
rather than I just want to investigate

411
00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:41,000
cases where people are being abducted or

412
00:17:44,590 --> 00:17:43,280
I just want to investigate cases of

413
00:17:46,660 --> 00:17:44,600
cattle mutilations or I just want to

414
00:17:48,490 --> 00:17:46,670
investigate in Roswell to throw me into

415
00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:48,500
the mix it's in some fashion I suppose

416
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:51,320
but there's always been that with MUFON

417
00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:53,510
moving into that it's it's I think more

418
00:17:59,530 --> 00:17:56,510
of a business move on Mullins part than

419
00:18:02,200 --> 00:17:59,540
it is removing their mission from UFO

420
00:18:04,540 --> 00:18:02,210
investigation to now we're a corporation

421
00:18:07,270 --> 00:18:04,550
and our mission is to make money and

422
00:18:10,510 --> 00:18:07,280
that would explain at least partially

423
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:10,520
why we ended up with the secret science

424
00:18:15,370 --> 00:18:13,490
program because the the attitude of the

425
00:18:17,170 --> 00:18:15,380
leadership of MUFON and I'm thinking

426
00:18:19,090 --> 00:18:17,180
specifically is doing person who

427
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:19,100
you all mentioned earlier who I don't

428
00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:20,570
understand why he wouldn't do your show

429
00:18:23,110 --> 00:18:22,220
he's done mine twice if I wasn't very

430
00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:23,120
nice to him

431
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:26,870
his attitude Hardison's attitude was he

432
00:18:32,170 --> 00:18:29,930
wanted to bring people into the arena

433
00:18:33,970 --> 00:18:32,180
allow them to listen to these people who

434
00:18:35,710 --> 00:18:33,980
are telling these cockamamie stories and

435
00:18:37,390 --> 00:18:35,720
let them decide for themselves whether

436
00:18:39,910 --> 00:18:37,400
they believed it or not and apparently

437
00:18:43,210 --> 00:18:39,920
for the MUFON symposium that was a

438
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:43,220
successful strategy based solely on the

439
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:45,050
amount of money that was returned before

440
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:47,110
the investment and so that seems to be

441
00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:49,490
the driving force and MUFON at the

442
00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:52,190
moment is not UFO investigation by

443
00:18:55,780 --> 00:18:53,960
making money for the corporation and

444
00:18:58,360 --> 00:18:55,790
keeping the corporation alive and that

445
00:19:00,010 --> 00:18:58,370
really is kind of the I guess mission of

446
00:19:01,330 --> 00:19:00,020
most corporations well let's make a good

447
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:01,340
product but let's make a lot of money

448
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:03,650
doing it so I think MUFON moved into

449
00:19:08,890 --> 00:19:07,010
that the exception here Kevin is they're

450
00:19:10,930 --> 00:19:08,900
not making a good product they're

451
00:19:12,910 --> 00:19:10,940
presenting nonsense and being delighted

452
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:12,920
over the fact they make money for MIT

453
00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:14,690
they make money from something what by

454
00:19:19,330 --> 00:19:17,500
the hangar one TV show which is also

455
00:19:21,250 --> 00:19:19,340
complete nonsense

456
00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:21,260
and I guess they're making what a

457
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:23,990
license fee to support that job they're

458
00:19:28,510 --> 00:19:25,610
making money off that but according to

459
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:28,520
what horizont old me that it did bring

460
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:31,730
membership into MUFON last few seasons

461
00:19:35,710 --> 00:19:34,130
but it still brought membership in and

462
00:19:37,630 --> 00:19:35,720
once you've got them Hawk then of course

463
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:37,640
it's up to them to keep you hooked and

464
00:19:41,050 --> 00:19:39,710
sending the money I'm astonished at the

465
00:19:43,770 --> 00:19:41,060
amount of money it cost to belong to

466
00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:43,780
MUFON at this point in time I I remember

467
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:46,190
Opera was charging like five dollars a

468
00:19:51,970 --> 00:19:49,370
year to be a member of a pro and you got

469
00:19:53,860 --> 00:19:51,980
the bulletin in the beginning you got it

470
00:19:56,410 --> 00:19:53,870
on a regular basis toward the end with

471
00:19:59,890 --> 00:19:56,420
the Lorenz ins becoming ill it became

472
00:20:02,320 --> 00:19:59,900
very sporadic but that's that's nothing

473
00:20:03,820 --> 00:20:02,330
bad about the Lorenz they became ill and

474
00:20:06,790 --> 00:20:03,830
it had trouble doing it but mufon's

475
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:06,800
attitude was you know describe to the

476
00:20:12,010 --> 00:20:09,890
journal cost you $60 a year or something

477
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:12,020
like that and then there's always these

478
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:14,330
other levels of donation if you if you

479
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:16,250
give them five thousand dollars a year

480
00:20:20,830 --> 00:20:17,810
you can be in their inner circle and get

481
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:20,840
all these other benefits so it's it's

482
00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:24,290
clearly become a cash cow as opposed to

483
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:27,980
doing research my impression is based on

484
00:20:32,510 --> 00:20:29,280
my conversations

485
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:32,520
various people is that's okay as long as

486
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:34,410
we have the money's coming in and we can

487
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:36,510
do these other things even if we don't

488
00:20:41,620 --> 00:20:38,310
do them as well as we could you know

489
00:20:45,380 --> 00:20:41,630
it's a corporation's sole purpose is to

490
00:20:48,410 --> 00:20:45,390
survive and to flourish and to become

491
00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:48,420
larger and become you know more and more

492
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:50,550
viable to its membership and hearkening

493
00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:51,450
back to your comment about

494
00:20:57,890 --> 00:20:56,070
specialization in in particular aspects

495
00:20:59,420 --> 00:20:57,900
of the so-called paranormal I hope you

496
00:21:01,610 --> 00:20:59,430
don't think all I do is run around

497
00:21:03,050 --> 00:21:01,620
looking at dead cows there Kevin no no

498
00:21:04,670 --> 00:21:03,060
no I'm just saying I'm just saying that

499
00:21:06,980 --> 00:21:04,680
there are people who specialize in that

500
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:06,990
sort of thing but I've looked at dead

501
00:21:13,010 --> 00:21:09,710
cows too you know yeah you did actually

502
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:13,020
40-plus years ago it didn't take long

503
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:14,730
for you did not think that that was a

504
00:21:20,450 --> 00:21:18,170
good I don't know allocation of time

505
00:21:22,820 --> 00:21:20,460
there were other things of the UFO

506
00:21:24,170 --> 00:21:22,830
phenomenon that that interested me more

507
00:21:27,710 --> 00:21:24,180
I could spend you know my whole time

508
00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:27,720
trying to debunk mj-12 for example which

509
00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:29,220
is gonna offend a lot of people I don't

510
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:30,960
think em g12 but I know an awful lot

511
00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:33,090
about that and I've spent the last

512
00:21:37,610 --> 00:21:34,860
several months looking into the billy

513
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:37,620
meier nonsense all because I made

514
00:21:44,180 --> 00:21:41,090
Annunaki was comment on my blog about

515
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:44,190
not believing billy meier and my horn

516
00:21:48,620 --> 00:21:46,010
went in my board

517
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:48,630
absolutely I'm thinking I just said I

518
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:51,120
don't believe it which indicates to me

519
00:21:56,450 --> 00:21:54,240
if you have evidence and you can present

520
00:21:58,010 --> 00:21:56,460
that evidence in a rational form and

521
00:22:00,560 --> 00:21:58,020
it's believable evidence I'm going to

522
00:22:03,620 --> 00:22:00,570
change my mind and the best example I

523
00:22:06,140 --> 00:22:03,630
have is the guys claiming to be Vietnam

524
00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:06,150
veterans at this point knowing how many

525
00:22:11,150 --> 00:22:08,220
people are faking that which really

526
00:22:12,740 --> 00:22:11,160
annoys me as a Vietnam veteran myself if

527
00:22:14,660 --> 00:22:12,750
you tell me your Vietnam veteran I

528
00:22:16,550 --> 00:22:14,670
probably don't believe you right now

529
00:22:18,350 --> 00:22:16,560
thinking about all the fakers out there

530
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:18,360
but if you have the proper documentation

531
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:20,130
if you want to see if I was a Vietnam

532
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:22,080
veteran go to the 187th assault

533
00:22:25,690 --> 00:22:23,610
helicopter company website you'll find

534
00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:25,700
my picture on it as one of the

535
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:28,260
helicopter pilots from that era but the

536
00:22:31,910 --> 00:22:30,480
point simply is I don't believe these

537
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:31,920
people until they prove it to me it

538
00:22:35,780 --> 00:22:33,450
doesn't mean they're lying it just means

539
00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:35,790
I want to see some evidence we're gonna

540
00:22:40,490 --> 00:22:38,100
have a lot more to come with Kevin

541
00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:40,500
Randle with Jean and Kris you're in the

542
00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:52,320
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cold sweats and started shaking and the

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[Music]

641
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:05,799
this is two wrong flower glossary of the

642
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:08,080
f1 Cyclopes in other books when you're

643
00:27:21,490 --> 00:27:10,450
listening to the podcast

644
00:27:27,410 --> 00:27:25,520
so we're about ready here to pick up a

645
00:27:29,390 --> 00:27:27,420
copy I have the virtual copy I don't

646
00:27:32,030 --> 00:27:29,400
have the physical copy of encounter in

647
00:27:34,970 --> 00:27:32,040
the desert somehow Chris got his copy

648
00:27:37,730 --> 00:27:34,980
and mine must have gone by Pony Express

649
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:37,740
or something or one of our enemies you

650
00:27:42,020 --> 00:27:40,320
know grab the copy I have no idea but we

651
00:27:43,430 --> 00:27:42,030
live in an apartment complex here so

652
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:43,440
anything is possible

653
00:27:50,870 --> 00:27:46,890
so Kevin Randall in recent years you've

654
00:27:52,130 --> 00:27:50,880
been going back into older cases kind of

655
00:27:54,590 --> 00:27:52,140
as cold cases

656
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:54,600
reminds me of the TV show cold case

657
00:28:00,110 --> 00:27:56,130
where you're looking at these cases and

658
00:28:03,140 --> 00:28:00,120
getting a sense as to what may or should

659
00:28:05,690 --> 00:28:03,150
be changed if anything what value they

660
00:28:07,370 --> 00:28:05,700
have and certainly with Roswell in the

661
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:07,380
21st century you look at the Roswell

662
00:28:13,220 --> 00:28:10,320
case and you decided certain things

663
00:28:15,140 --> 00:28:13,230
we're not quite as compelling as they

664
00:28:16,310 --> 00:28:15,150
used to be with Roswell this way first

665
00:28:18,169 --> 00:28:16,320
century I wanted to look at it

666
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:18,179
dispassionately and see where we really

667
00:28:22,460 --> 00:28:19,770
were with the evidence because at one

668
00:28:24,590 --> 00:28:22,470
point it seemed like this is the case

669
00:28:26,540 --> 00:28:24,600
that had everything it would prove that

670
00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:26,550
there's alien visitation and going back

671
00:28:30,410 --> 00:28:28,080
and looking at the number of people who

672
00:28:32,030 --> 00:28:30,420
were making up their involvement the

673
00:28:34,220 --> 00:28:32,040
Roswell case and some of the things that

674
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:34,230
went off the rails I thought it was time

675
00:28:39,650 --> 00:28:37,679
to look at it in its totality and see

676
00:28:41,890 --> 00:28:39,660
where exactly we stood on it and that's

677
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:41,900
resulted in Roswell in the 21st century

678
00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:44,610
and I tried to document everything so

679
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:46,320
that you don't have to believe what I

680
00:28:50,690 --> 00:28:49,170
say in the in the book that you can

681
00:28:52,490 --> 00:28:50,700
follow the footnotes back to the

682
00:28:54,260 --> 00:28:52,500
original sources of the information and

683
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:54,270
determine whether or not you find those

684
00:28:57,620 --> 00:28:56,370
sources acceptable and that's another

685
00:29:00,380 --> 00:28:57,630
thing that I think has been missing from

686
00:29:02,030 --> 00:29:00,390
ufology is if you write a book about

687
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:02,040
UFOs and there's a lot of people still

688
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:04,170
doing this sort of thing and you read a

689
00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:05,850
lot of other books about UFOs you

690
00:29:10,910 --> 00:29:08,190
incorporate the mistakes made by the

691
00:29:13,549 --> 00:29:10,920
authors you read in your book and what I

692
00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:13,559
tried to do with Rosalyn is is go back

693
00:29:19,220 --> 00:29:16,500
and look at the original sources and

694
00:29:21,890 --> 00:29:19,230
eliminate those mistakes that we all had

695
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:21,900
made as we were writing story and and

696
00:29:25,310 --> 00:29:23,250
the best example of that is Frank

697
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:25,320
Kaufman I mean I believe Frank Kaufman

698
00:29:29,060 --> 00:29:26,610
and there seemed to be evidence

699
00:29:31,789 --> 00:29:29,070
to support what he said until around

700
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:31,799
2000 when we discovered and I should say

701
00:29:36,860 --> 00:29:35,370
mark Radhika and Don Schmitt and and one

702
00:29:38,450 --> 00:29:36,870
other fellow whose name escapes me at

703
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:38,460
the moment and I don't know why

704
00:29:45,740 --> 00:29:42,450
Omar Chesney I'm sorry mark Chesney had

705
00:29:47,810 --> 00:29:45,750
been asked by Kaufman's Widow to make

706
00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:47,820
sure that there were no contractual

707
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:51,720
obligations that that Frank had assigned

708
00:29:56,539 --> 00:29:54,330
prior to his death so that there would

709
00:29:58,970 --> 00:29:56,549
be no legal ramifications for her and in

710
00:30:01,700 --> 00:29:58,980
going through their office or his office

711
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:01,710
found original documents showed where he

712
00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:05,370
had altered his discharge papers so that

713
00:30:08,090 --> 00:30:06,750
it looked like he had been trained in

714
00:30:09,620 --> 00:30:08,100
intelligence and had been a master

715
00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:09,630
sergeant when in fact he'd been trained

716
00:30:14,090 --> 00:30:11,580
administration had been a staff sergeant

717
00:30:15,470 --> 00:30:14,100
and so I wanted to look at all of those

718
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:15,480
things and go back to those original

719
00:30:20,390 --> 00:30:18,090
sources and say you know this guy tells

720
00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:20,400
a wonderful tale unfortunately we cannot

721
00:30:24,919 --> 00:30:23,070
accept it because of this this and this

722
00:30:27,020 --> 00:30:24,929
there's no evidence that he was involved

723
00:30:28,610 --> 00:30:27,030
in any kind of retrieval operation he

724
00:30:30,110 --> 00:30:28,620
was a civilian at the base at the time

725
00:30:31,909 --> 00:30:30,120
and and they probably wouldn't have

726
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:31,919
brought him in and I think that's one of

727
00:30:38,740 --> 00:30:33,840
the things that we need to do in UFO

728
00:30:43,580 --> 00:30:38,750
research is take a look at some of the

729
00:30:46,490 --> 00:30:43,590
the iconic books in ufology dick halls

730
00:30:49,070 --> 00:30:46,500
UFO evidence for example there are

731
00:30:52,610 --> 00:30:49,080
errors in that that are not really the

732
00:30:54,409 --> 00:30:52,620
fault of dick Hall but are the fault of

733
00:30:57,049 --> 00:30:54,419
people who were reporting things to him

734
00:30:59,720 --> 00:30:57,059
and and another example of that is

735
00:31:01,820 --> 00:30:59,730
there's a case from Cedar Rapids Iowa

736
00:31:04,340 --> 00:31:01,830
that supposedly took place on the 24th

737
00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:04,350
of June 1947 the afternoon that Kenneth

738
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:06,809
Arnold saw his objects at Mount Ranier

739
00:31:12,350 --> 00:31:09,450
or it was published on the 24th of June

740
00:31:14,810 --> 00:31:12,360
which means here's a guy in Iowa who saw

741
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:14,820
disc shaped objects the same day that

742
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:16,770
Arnold did and it was reported prior to

743
00:31:20,510 --> 00:31:18,720
Arnold's information showing up in the

744
00:31:23,030 --> 00:31:20,520
newspaper show you can't point at Arnold

745
00:31:25,940 --> 00:31:23,040
as being a source which was important to

746
00:31:28,190 --> 00:31:25,950
me and I tried to trace that back and it

747
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:28,200
turned out the article and and Holle had

748
00:31:32,390 --> 00:31:30,510
gotten from Frank Edwards who cited the

749
00:31:34,610 --> 00:31:32,400
Cedar Rapids Gazette as the source but

750
00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:34,620
didn't give any date/time it just said

751
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:37,260
the prior to Arnold and so I went back

752
00:31:40,090 --> 00:31:38,690
through the Cedar Rapids Gazette

753
00:31:41,890 --> 00:31:40,100
found the article it actually was

754
00:31:44,350 --> 00:31:41,900
published three days after Arnold's

755
00:31:46,270 --> 00:31:44,360
sighting the guy wasn't from Cedar

756
00:31:49,180 --> 00:31:46,280
Rapids Iowa he was from Peoria Illinois

757
00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:49,190
and it clearly was a response to the

758
00:31:53,050 --> 00:31:51,110
Arnold sighting you know he was saying

759
00:31:54,730 --> 00:31:53,060
well the Arnold had kind of inspired him

760
00:31:57,250 --> 00:31:54,740
to go to the police which doesn't mean

761
00:31:59,320 --> 00:31:57,260
the sighting was bogus it just means it

762
00:32:00,760 --> 00:31:59,330
wasn't independent of Arnold and in the

763
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:00,770
respect that I was looking for something

764
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:03,440
prior printed prior to Arnold talking

765
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:05,570
about discs you know here's a mistake

766
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:08,210
that dick Hall made because he didn't

767
00:32:12,340 --> 00:32:10,370
have the resources to go back to look it

768
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:12,350
up and I happen to have them they did

769
00:32:18,610 --> 00:32:14,650
the same thing with Jerry Clark he in

770
00:32:22,210 --> 00:32:18,620
1977 had dismissed the Alexander

771
00:32:25,030 --> 00:32:22,220
Hamilton 1897 a calf abduction case by a

772
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:25,040
great airship and put it all off on a

773
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:27,650
hoax by Hamilton as part of a liar's

774
00:32:32,830 --> 00:32:30,410
club and he cited a particular article

775
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:32,840
found in the Kansas City Star I believe

776
00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:35,090
well I went back and I found the article

777
00:32:40,330 --> 00:32:37,760
and it said nothing nothing to do with a

778
00:32:42,850 --> 00:32:40,340
liar's club in fact why he explains it

779
00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:42,860
all in my book and and I felt that the

780
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:46,070
Jerry had putting a good spin on it

781
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:49,130
Jerry had stretched the the facts and

782
00:32:54,250 --> 00:32:51,050
put his own spin and interpretation on

783
00:32:56,890 --> 00:32:54,260
it when in fact there were 12 affidavits

784
00:32:58,420 --> 00:32:56,900
attesting to Hamilton's honesty but by

785
00:33:00,550 --> 00:32:58,430
the 12 pillars of the community which

786
00:33:03,340 --> 00:33:00,560
which of course Clark never mentioned so

787
00:33:05,140 --> 00:33:03,350
instead of the case you know for 40

788
00:33:07,690 --> 00:33:05,150
years being considered you know a hoax

789
00:33:09,250 --> 00:33:07,700
now all of a sudden we reopened the case

790
00:33:11,020 --> 00:33:09,260
because there's compelling evidence to

791
00:33:12,790 --> 00:33:11,030
suggest that the event really did happen

792
00:33:15,070 --> 00:33:12,800
the way that Hamilton and the other two

793
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:15,080
witnesses described so I would suggest

794
00:33:19,450 --> 00:33:16,910
you take a look at Eddie Bullards book

795
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:19,460
where he found an article and I and

796
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:21,440
you'd have to look at his sources in the

797
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:24,770
eighth's County newspaper where Hamilton

798
00:33:28,810 --> 00:33:27,170
admitted it was a hoax you know again I

799
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:28,820
went back I went back there and it

800
00:33:36,850 --> 00:33:30,770
wasn't Hamilton there was it was his son

801
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:36,860
claiming that this whole thing about the

802
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:39,170
liar's club and everything may have come

803
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:41,210
from the son who was embarrassed that

804
00:33:45,490 --> 00:33:43,550
his dad had had quit his job two days

805
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:45,500
after the event which no one ever

806
00:33:50,410 --> 00:33:47,450
mentions that he was the county

807
00:33:52,090 --> 00:33:50,420
constable and because of the furor over

808
00:33:53,860 --> 00:33:52,100
his claim he just

809
00:33:55,510 --> 00:33:53,870
he said well I can't help but if nobody

810
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:55,520
believes me I'm you know and said since

811
00:33:59,710 --> 00:33:57,650
I've lost the trust of the of the locals

812
00:34:01,870 --> 00:33:59,720
I'm just gonna you know I'm gonna just

813
00:34:03,970 --> 00:34:01,880
quit my job it was it was quite a

814
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:03,980
controversy back then we found other

815
00:34:11,050 --> 00:34:06,770
articles quoting Hamilton at the time

816
00:34:13,540 --> 00:34:11,060
where he again reaffirms his his story

817
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:13,550
and of course again there are the twelve

818
00:34:18,010 --> 00:34:15,649
affidavit attesting to his the rasa tea

819
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:18,020
and honesty of one Alexander Hamilton

820
00:34:22,690 --> 00:34:20,810
estates a state senator so you know I

821
00:34:26,020 --> 00:34:22,700
the only reason why I bring this up is

822
00:34:28,330 --> 00:34:26,030
unless you do that kind of back work you

823
00:34:31,060 --> 00:34:28,340
know looking at sources that are used to

824
00:34:32,950 --> 00:34:31,070
make claims about facts unless you

825
00:34:34,720 --> 00:34:32,960
actually do the easier due diligence and

826
00:34:36,879 --> 00:34:34,730
go through this information

827
00:34:38,649 --> 00:34:36,889
you can't just accept everything at face

828
00:34:40,119 --> 00:34:38,659
value and unfortunately Kevin there's

829
00:34:43,060 --> 00:34:40,129
not there's not enough people out there

830
00:34:46,060 --> 00:34:43,070
that are willing to do the extra legwork

831
00:34:47,260 --> 00:34:46,070
and that extra digging to really dot the

832
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:47,270
i's and cross the t's and it's

833
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:49,280
unfortunate well I do something on my

834
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:52,330
blog called chasing footnotes where

835
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:54,530
something sparks an interest in a case

836
00:34:58,870 --> 00:34:56,570
and I go to various sources I look at

837
00:35:00,849 --> 00:34:58,880
the footnotes and I see where they got

838
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:00,859
the information and go to that source go

839
00:35:04,359 --> 00:35:02,450
to that source try to trace it down to

840
00:35:08,050 --> 00:35:04,369
the end to find out exactly what

841
00:35:09,849 --> 00:35:08,060
happened and and sometimes and that was

842
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:09,859
where the dick Hall thing came back I

843
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:11,570
was doing a chasing footnotes thing

844
00:35:16,870 --> 00:35:14,930
about the Cedar Rapids case because the

845
00:35:19,090 --> 00:35:16,880
argument from the skeptics had been that

846
00:35:21,730 --> 00:35:19,100
Arnold didn't see a saucer-shaped craft

847
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:21,740
which is obviously true but everybody

848
00:35:25,060 --> 00:35:23,570
repeated it saw the thing saucer and

849
00:35:28,090 --> 00:35:25,070
thought of dis same craft so I was

850
00:35:30,910 --> 00:35:28,100
looking specifically for reports made

851
00:35:33,250 --> 00:35:30,920
prior to Arnold that we could document

852
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:33,260
had been made prior to Arnold about

853
00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:35,119
disc-shaped craft and one of these was

854
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:37,670
this story told by Frank Edwards I think

855
00:35:41,950 --> 00:35:39,650
he first told it in like 1956 and I

856
00:35:44,380 --> 00:35:41,960
think that that was where I think Hall

857
00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:44,390
cited that as well and I was able to get

858
00:35:49,060 --> 00:35:47,510
back to where Edwards got the original

859
00:35:50,290 --> 00:35:49,070
story and he was talking about it coming

860
00:35:53,109 --> 00:35:50,300
from the Cedar Rapids Gazette

861
00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:53,119
I happened to have access to their files

862
00:35:58,510 --> 00:35:56,510
from 1947 there was actually two

863
00:35:59,680 --> 00:35:58,520
newspapers in Cedar Rapids at the time

864
00:36:01,300 --> 00:35:59,690
and the other was I think to Cedar

865
00:36:02,470 --> 00:36:01,310
Rapids Republican but it was a weekly

866
00:36:04,270 --> 00:36:02,480
and I went through both newspapers

867
00:36:04,839 --> 00:36:04,280
looking for and I finally found the

868
00:36:06,549 --> 00:36:04,849
article

869
00:36:08,349 --> 00:36:06,559
but it was published a couple of days

870
00:36:09,940 --> 00:36:08,359
after Arnold so it didn't do me any good

871
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:09,950
because you could still make the

872
00:36:15,219 --> 00:36:12,410
argument that the description given by

873
00:36:17,049 --> 00:36:15,229
the a witness have been influenced by

874
00:36:18,609 --> 00:36:17,059
the other newspaper articles they'd seen

875
00:36:20,529 --> 00:36:18,619
if it had been published on the 24th

876
00:36:22,450 --> 00:36:20,539
that would have been and that would have

877
00:36:23,799 --> 00:36:22,460
been that would have been noteworthy but

878
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:23,809
it was probably you see the same thing

879
00:36:28,450 --> 00:36:25,970
with Aztec there's no mention of Aztec

880
00:36:30,609 --> 00:36:28,460
anywhere prior to I think the scholarly

881
00:36:32,469 --> 00:36:30,619
book we've got more to come and we're

882
00:36:35,259 --> 00:36:32,479
gonna get definitely in the next segment

883
00:36:41,250 --> 00:36:35,269
to Saqqara with Jean Chris and Kevin

884
00:36:52,310 --> 00:36:48,400
[Music]

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906
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908
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909
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910
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911
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912
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913
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990
00:41:08,329 --> 00:41:06,470
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991
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:08,339
report and you're listening to the para

992
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cast the gold standard of paranormal

993
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994
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:19,370
[Music]

995
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:21,690
Kevin Randall's here the Booker's

996
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:24,210
encounter of the desert encounter in the

997
00:41:28,430 --> 00:41:26,370
desert covers the Saqqara New Mexico

998
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:28,440
case now just briefly about Astec New

999
00:41:33,710 --> 00:41:31,170
Mexico you talked to him first you had

1000
00:41:38,390 --> 00:41:33,720
an article by Monti Shriver who lived in

1001
00:41:39,950 --> 00:41:38,400
Aztec back in 1948 and nothing happened

1002
00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:39,960
and he went to his class reunion and

1003
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:41,760
nothing happened and we had him on after

1004
00:41:46,340 --> 00:41:44,370
the para cast and I liked the guy in

1005
00:41:48,050 --> 00:41:46,350
fact I think we were gonna have lunch

1006
00:41:51,140 --> 00:41:48,060
together during one of his visits to

1007
00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:51,150
Arizona really really nice guy and I

1008
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:53,520
took him totally serious and that's the

1009
00:41:58,070 --> 00:41:55,530
other problem with fasttech it's not

1010
00:42:00,500 --> 00:41:58,080
just there's no record before the Scully

1011
00:42:02,510 --> 00:42:00,510
book people who live there don't know

1012
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:02,520
what happened I just did a conference

1013
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:05,250
with Chuck Wade who some of our

1014
00:42:09,980 --> 00:42:07,530
listeners may know is convinced that

1015
00:42:12,290 --> 00:42:09,990
he's found a debris field and the plains

1016
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:12,300
of st. Augustine and has all this very

1017
00:42:16,340 --> 00:42:14,850
interesting looking metal bits like his

1018
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:16,350
film festival and Gallup a couple of

1019
00:42:20,690 --> 00:42:18,450
weekends ago and I mentioned you know

1020
00:42:22,850 --> 00:42:20,700
Aztec and he says oh no I know somebody

1021
00:42:24,290 --> 00:42:22,860
that actually saw the convoy and talked

1022
00:42:26,570 --> 00:42:24,300
to people that were involved and oh it

1023
00:42:28,820 --> 00:42:26,580
really did happen and there's all these

1024
00:42:30,890 --> 00:42:28,830
apocryphal second third hand accounts

1025
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:30,900
but you would think something like that

1026
00:42:35,630 --> 00:42:32,970
would have at least made some sort of

1027
00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:35,640
local newspaper or be included in

1028
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:38,310
somebody's diary or journal or something

1029
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:41,370
I just don't see it I think the thing

1030
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:42,960
interesting thing is if you go back to

1031
00:42:47,630 --> 00:42:45,450
the William Steinman's book UFO crash at

1032
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:47,640
Aztec and he talks about a guy named

1033
00:42:52,850 --> 00:42:49,770
Harold Dunning who supposedly had been

1034
00:42:54,620 --> 00:42:52,860
involved in some aspect of the recovery

1035
00:42:56,510 --> 00:42:54,630
operation he saw something or he did

1036
00:42:58,190 --> 00:42:56,520
something and Steinman goes to talk to

1037
00:42:59,810 --> 00:42:58,200
him and Dunning blows him off says no

1038
00:43:01,640 --> 00:42:59,820
nothing happened and in Steinman's

1039
00:43:03,950 --> 00:43:01,650
conclusion was he'd been gotten to by

1040
00:43:05,570 --> 00:43:03,960
the CIA or something because he tells

1041
00:43:06,890 --> 00:43:05,580
Steinman no no no you know leave me

1042
00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:06,900
alone I don't want to talk about it I'm

1043
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:09,270
tired of this nonsense and he's he's

1044
00:43:14,510 --> 00:43:11,970
seeing it as part of a cover-up where

1045
00:43:15,950 --> 00:43:14,520
the rest of us kind of see it as the

1046
00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:15,960
guys just doesn't want to talk about

1047
00:43:21,170 --> 00:43:18,150
this anymore because it didn't happen

1048
00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:21,180
money Shriver I I think is quite sincere

1049
00:43:25,450 --> 00:43:22,740
and he's done a wonderful job of kind of

1050
00:43:27,740 --> 00:43:25,460
documenting his points of view that

1051
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:27,750
people who claim they were there at the

1052
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:29,970
time I think with the El Paso natural

1053
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:31,210
gas pipeline

1054
00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:32,530
was supposedly working on the pipeline

1055
00:43:38,609 --> 00:43:34,630
when the thing crashed and that was why

1056
00:43:41,070 --> 00:43:38,619
they happened to be in the area the Paso

1057
00:43:43,770 --> 00:43:41,080
natural gas pipeline didn't exist in

1058
00:43:45,270 --> 00:43:43,780
there until 1950 for example there's

1059
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:45,280
some interesting stuff like that it

1060
00:43:48,570 --> 00:43:46,930
you've got to look at all of that and

1061
00:43:51,020 --> 00:43:48,580
account for that and if you you you

1062
00:43:54,690 --> 00:43:51,030
can't get to an original source

1063
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:54,700
documenting it in 1948 we know Roz will

1064
00:43:58,950 --> 00:43:56,770
happen because all the newspapers had it

1065
00:44:00,930 --> 00:43:58,960
doesn't mean it was alien it just means

1066
00:44:02,370 --> 00:44:00,940
that something happened there possible

1067
00:44:05,579 --> 00:44:02,380
but it's a stack there's nothing there

1068
00:44:07,890 --> 00:44:05,589
to find I think muddy Schreiber points

1069
00:44:09,420 --> 00:44:07,900
it out very well in the things that he's

1070
00:44:11,550 --> 00:44:09,430
done and I've got some stuff on my blog

1071
00:44:14,010 --> 00:44:11,560
about from Monte Schreiber about what

1072
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:14,020
he'd seen and how he refutes some of

1073
00:44:20,070 --> 00:44:17,290
this so I think the the case for asset X

1074
00:44:21,630 --> 00:44:20,080
is extremely weak but you know that's

1075
00:44:23,579 --> 00:44:21,640
that's where we are on some of that

1076
00:44:24,329 --> 00:44:23,589
stuff you know we have to look at this

1077
00:44:26,339 --> 00:44:24,339
ro

1078
00:44:27,839 --> 00:44:26,349
the case was the cause is quite a bit

1079
00:44:30,660 --> 00:44:27,849
different now we were talking about

1080
00:44:33,890 --> 00:44:30,670
mistakes made by original research and

1081
00:44:36,810 --> 00:44:33,900
investigation I'm sure you comb through

1082
00:44:38,339 --> 00:44:36,820
Sikora saucer and Pentagon pantry which

1083
00:44:40,829 --> 00:44:38,349
I consider one of the finest books ever

1084
00:44:43,020 --> 00:44:40,839
written about a single case what

1085
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:43,030
mistakes or inconsistencies did you find

1086
00:44:46,890 --> 00:44:45,250
in Ray's book I wasn't looking for

1087
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:46,900
inconsistencies in Ray's book and he

1088
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:49,450
looked more at it from his investigative

1089
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:51,520
point of view he was there on scene I

1090
00:44:56,370 --> 00:44:53,890
think he's the only person alive today

1091
00:44:58,440 --> 00:44:56,380
who was there originally other engines

1092
00:45:02,280 --> 00:44:58,450
were there within hours their book on

1093
00:45:05,490 --> 00:45:02,290
hynek's gone kenta nila didn't go Lonnie

1094
00:45:08,910 --> 00:45:05,500
Zamora was gone eight years ago today

1095
00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:08,920
yes and the other police officers are

1096
00:45:13,050 --> 00:45:10,990
gone like said Heinekens God I think

1097
00:45:14,609 --> 00:45:13,060
moody is gone I'm not sure about him he

1098
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:14,619
was the Air Force officer I don't I

1099
00:45:18,180 --> 00:45:15,910
think holder is gone

1100
00:45:20,579 --> 00:45:18,190
he was the Air Force Army captain that

1101
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:20,589
was there and that sort of thing but but

1102
00:45:26,070 --> 00:45:23,050
his book is is about his experiences on

1103
00:45:29,070 --> 00:45:26,080
scene and where I would disagree with

1104
00:45:32,190 --> 00:45:29,080
for example the shape of the emblem that

1105
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:32,200
belani reported he says one thing in his

1106
00:45:36,810 --> 00:45:34,930
book he says another thing in letters

1107
00:45:39,089 --> 00:45:36,820
that he wrote in the time frame so

1108
00:45:41,130 --> 00:45:39,099
there's a section in in my book about

1109
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:41,140
what symbol did was this amour I

1110
00:45:44,310 --> 00:45:43,570
actually see and I know I disagree with

1111
00:45:46,740 --> 00:45:44,320
with

1112
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:46,750
raise conclusion that it was an inverted

1113
00:45:50,310 --> 00:45:48,610
V with three lines through it I think

1114
00:45:52,260 --> 00:45:50,320
it's what I called the umbrella symbol

1115
00:45:53,790 --> 00:45:52,270
which is kind of an arrowhead with an

1116
00:45:56,370 --> 00:45:53,800
arc over and a line across the bottom

1117
00:45:58,620 --> 00:45:56,380
and that was what is a more a draw

1118
00:46:00,000 --> 00:45:58,630
within minutes of the object taking off

1119
00:46:02,580 --> 00:46:00,010
on a scrap of paper and we have the

1120
00:46:05,220 --> 00:46:02,590
scrap of paper with that on it and he

1121
00:46:07,170 --> 00:46:05,230
signed it and within hours of the

1122
00:46:08,790 --> 00:46:07,180
sighting he's in the police station

1123
00:46:11,130 --> 00:46:08,800
being interrogated and I say

1124
00:46:12,980 --> 00:46:11,140
interrogated questioned by holder who is

1125
00:46:15,330 --> 00:46:12,990
an army officer brought into this

1126
00:46:17,340 --> 00:46:15,340
because he was I guess the

1127
00:46:20,550 --> 00:46:17,350
highest-ranking military guy available

1128
00:46:23,580 --> 00:46:20,560
an FBI agent and we all know that the

1129
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:23,590
holders son had signed an affidavit to

1130
00:46:27,990 --> 00:46:26,530
James Fox and Andreas Stanford yes I see

1131
00:46:29,370 --> 00:46:28,000
the fact that the original symbol was

1132
00:46:31,470 --> 00:46:29,380
the inverted V with the three lines

1133
00:46:33,450 --> 00:46:31,480
folks you know we're going into the

1134
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:33,460
weeds here we're right in the middle of

1135
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:38,290
the case and I very inside baseball and

1136
00:46:42,750 --> 00:46:41,050
I think here what you should do is maybe

1137
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:42,760
paint the picture from the beginning

1138
00:46:50,220 --> 00:46:46,090
Kevin what made you want to go back and

1139
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:50,230
explore this case to review it all over

1140
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:52,930
again and see where the data stands

1141
00:46:58,890 --> 00:46:56,050
today how'd you get started well as you

1142
00:47:03,420 --> 00:46:58,900
guys know finding guests for a program

1143
00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:03,430
is a task and I had written to the

1144
00:47:07,350 --> 00:47:05,710
public relations officer of MUFON and

1145
00:47:09,930 --> 00:47:07,360
said you know I've got a radio program

1146
00:47:11,250 --> 00:47:09,940
I'd like to have some people on there do

1147
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:11,260
you have any suggestions and they said

1148
00:47:16,530 --> 00:47:14,170
well we have Ben moss and Tony angioma

1149
00:47:18,900 --> 00:47:16,540
who had been reinvestigating the Socorro

1150
00:47:20,670 --> 00:47:18,910
case I said great I got them on the

1151
00:47:23,700 --> 00:47:20,680
program and as we were going through the

1152
00:47:25,260 --> 00:47:23,710
the case they said a couple of things to

1153
00:47:26,820 --> 00:47:25,270
me that just didn't sound right they

1154
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:26,830
said for example Lonnie Zamora was not

1155
00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:28,090
the only witness to this there were

1156
00:47:32,370 --> 00:47:30,730
three people who saw the object in the

1157
00:47:35,460 --> 00:47:32,380
sky before it landed out there and I'd

1158
00:47:37,350 --> 00:47:35,470
never heard that and I tried to get some

1159
00:47:38,790 --> 00:47:37,360
more information from them on that you

1160
00:47:40,170 --> 00:47:38,800
know what's your source for that did you

1161
00:47:41,610 --> 00:47:40,180
check the police records and I never got

1162
00:47:43,890 --> 00:47:41,620
a good answer for that I think it just

1163
00:47:46,740 --> 00:47:43,900
kind of got lost in the discussion of

1164
00:47:49,260 --> 00:47:46,750
the Socorro case that kind of intrigued

1165
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:49,270
me so I went back to begin looking at

1166
00:47:53,250 --> 00:47:51,490
the bunch Bluebook file on this and the

1167
00:47:54,769 --> 00:47:53,260
project Bluebook has a whole long file

1168
00:47:57,739 --> 00:47:54,779
and it talks about how the Moore

1169
00:48:00,829 --> 00:47:57,749
was chasing a speeder in sekolah Mexico

1170
00:48:02,569 --> 00:48:00,839
on April 24th 1964 and he heard a loud

1171
00:48:05,089 --> 00:48:02,579
roar that he thought was maybe a

1172
00:48:07,429 --> 00:48:05,099
dynamite Shack located on the outskirts

1173
00:48:09,890 --> 00:48:07,439
of town exploding and he drove over to

1174
00:48:12,049 --> 00:48:09,900
look to see what had happened there and

1175
00:48:14,599 --> 00:48:12,059
as he came up over the rise he saw this

1176
00:48:16,399 --> 00:48:14,609
this object sitting on the ground which

1177
00:48:18,709 --> 00:48:16,409
he thought was an overturned car and he

1178
00:48:21,559 --> 00:48:18,719
started down toward that and when he got

1179
00:48:24,469 --> 00:48:21,569
closer he saw two small figures close to

1180
00:48:25,939 --> 00:48:24,479
it it saw that it wasn't an oval it

1181
00:48:28,149 --> 00:48:25,949
wasn't an overturned car but was

1182
00:48:30,949 --> 00:48:28,159
something else again and when these

1183
00:48:32,839 --> 00:48:30,959
figures saw him they kind of reacted and

1184
00:48:34,189 --> 00:48:32,849
they they ran around the back of the

1185
00:48:35,899 --> 00:48:34,199
craft there was a sound like a hatch

1186
00:48:37,459 --> 00:48:35,909
closing and the thing takes off in a

1187
00:48:40,219 --> 00:48:37,469
roar and lifts off into the sky and

1188
00:48:43,729 --> 00:48:40,229
disappears the more immediately calls

1189
00:48:46,459 --> 00:48:43,739
his friend sergeant Chavez Samuel Chavez

1190
00:48:48,019 --> 00:48:46,469
who was a state policeman and according

1191
00:48:50,149 --> 00:48:48,029
to the Lorenz anjaii then this is how

1192
00:48:51,709 --> 00:48:50,159
far in the weeds we go on this according

1193
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:51,719
to Lorenz and Chavez happened to be at

1194
00:48:56,419 --> 00:48:53,130
the police station trying to check a

1195
00:48:58,279 --> 00:48:56,429
prisoner in or book a book a suspect or

1196
00:49:00,079 --> 00:48:58,289
something like that and he turned that

1197
00:49:02,299 --> 00:49:00,089
Duty over to somebody else and he goes

1198
00:49:04,549 --> 00:49:02,309
roaring back out to find Lonnie Zamora

1199
00:49:07,459 --> 00:49:04,559
what he's seen and he gets he gets there

1200
00:49:09,769 --> 00:49:07,469
in aniseh Juarez pale he looks like he's

1201
00:49:13,669 --> 00:49:09,779
seen a ghost he's very agitated and

1202
00:49:15,409 --> 00:49:13,679
Chavez questions about that there is a

1203
00:49:18,349 --> 00:49:15,419
suggestion and I think Rey Stanford

1204
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:18,359
brings it up himself that Chavez may

1205
00:49:21,079 --> 00:49:20,400
have seen the object in the sky I don't

1206
00:49:25,819 --> 00:49:21,089
think he did

1207
00:49:29,329 --> 00:49:25,829
III think that probably is untrue but

1208
00:49:30,469 --> 00:49:29,339
which is not to say Rey was reporting

1209
00:49:33,949 --> 00:49:30,479
things that were wrong I think the

1210
00:49:35,949 --> 00:49:33,959
impression he got from Chavez and Zamora

1211
00:49:38,149 --> 00:49:35,959
is that Chavez may have seen it the

1212
00:49:41,539 --> 00:49:38,159
documentation suggests otherwise I'll go

1213
00:49:43,699 --> 00:49:41,549
with the documentation on that so the

1214
00:49:46,130 --> 00:49:43,709
thing takes often and in the next few

1215
00:49:47,779 --> 00:49:46,140
hours the captain Richard holder who was

1216
00:49:52,009 --> 00:49:47,789
the up range commander at white sands

1217
00:49:53,209 --> 00:49:52,019
and if you know New Mexican geography

1218
00:49:54,829 --> 00:49:53,219
you know White Sands Missile Range

1219
00:49:57,349 --> 00:49:54,839
really the headquarters is down near

1220
00:50:02,120 --> 00:49:57,359
Alamogordo or south of Alamogordo but

1221
00:50:05,989 --> 00:50:02,130
the range stretches literally 50 60 100

1222
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:05,999
150 miles to the north so that holder's

1223
00:50:08,839 --> 00:50:07,650
duty station on the White Sands Missile

1224
00:50:10,279 --> 00:50:08,849
Range it was actually close

1225
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:10,289
for him to live in Socorro than it would

1226
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:13,650
be to Alamogordo so he's there an FBI

1227
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:15,119
agent gets involved there's some

1228
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:16,890
question of who called who about this

1229
00:50:21,109 --> 00:50:18,690
but both of them get called both of them

1230
00:50:23,450 --> 00:50:21,119
go out to the police station they sit

1231
00:50:25,009 --> 00:50:23,460
down with mezuzah Mora and they talk to

1232
00:50:27,319 --> 00:50:25,019
him that evening about what's going on

1233
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:27,329
and the story gets out into the

1234
00:50:31,460 --> 00:50:29,970
newspapers Lorenz ins arrived within 48

1235
00:50:33,950 --> 00:50:31,470
hours they're talking about the object

1236
00:50:36,380 --> 00:50:33,960
and and that what Zamora had seen and

1237
00:50:38,329 --> 00:50:36,390
looking for other evidence and trying to

1238
00:50:40,279 --> 00:50:38,339
find out exactly what had happened so if

1239
00:50:42,769 --> 00:50:40,289
you've got all of that going on but

1240
00:50:44,620 --> 00:50:42,779
basically what it is is a police officer

1241
00:50:49,509 --> 00:50:44,630
reported an object on the ground

1242
00:50:52,339 --> 00:50:49,519
reported illegal aliens you could say

1243
00:50:55,039 --> 00:50:52,349
creatures from another world around the

1244
00:50:57,109 --> 00:50:55,049
craft and it takes often disappears in

1245
00:51:00,349 --> 00:50:57,119
the sky rather rapidly it was in sight

1246
00:51:02,660 --> 00:51:00,359
for maybe a minute and a half it's a

1247
00:51:06,019 --> 00:51:02,670
more saw for maybe a minute a half maybe

1248
00:51:07,729 --> 00:51:06,029
two minutes but I got involved because I

1249
00:51:11,479 --> 00:51:07,739
wanted to know about these other

1250
00:51:12,620 --> 00:51:11,489
witnesses because if the case always

1251
00:51:15,410 --> 00:51:12,630
struck me as well it's very interesting

1252
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:15,420
but it's single witness I would like

1253
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:17,729
more witnesses in in Benoit's and Tony

1254
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:19,410
Angie all I was talking about additional

1255
00:51:25,279 --> 00:51:22,710
witnesses let's do our break and we'll

1256
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:25,289
continue we search for other witnesses

1257
00:51:39,580 --> 00:51:28,650
in Socorro New Mexico with Kevin Randle

1258
00:51:47,210 --> 00:51:43,500
thank you for listening to GCN

1259
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:47,220
be sure to visit GCN live.com today

1260
00:51:51,420 --> 00:51:49,690
attack of the rock ODEs has been

1261
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:51,430
well-received by critics and readers

1262
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alike it's a thrill a minute story

1263
00:51:58,530 --> 00:51:56,230
you'll never forget a former US military

1264
00:52:00,810 --> 00:51:58,540
intelligence officer is haunted by

1265
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:00,820
intense dreams about a beautiful woman

1266
00:52:06,210 --> 00:52:03,370
pleading for his help after a terrible

1267
00:52:08,460 --> 00:52:06,220
battle in outer space but the dreams

1268
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:08,470
turn out to be true and thrust him into

1269
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:10,330
a telepathic love affair with a woman

1270
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:12,970
whose faraway planet is intent on

1271
00:52:18,180 --> 00:52:15,370
destroying the earth and now the

1272
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1273
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1274
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1276
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1277
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:30,130
threaten the lives of freedom-loving

1278
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1279
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1280
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1282
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1284
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1286
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1291
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1292
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[Applause]

1307
00:54:03,670 --> 00:53:59,589
welcome back to to the para cast the

1308
00:54:08,190 --> 00:54:03,680
gold standard of paranormal radio and

1309
00:54:11,250 --> 00:54:08,200
now here's Jane Steinberg

1310
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:11,260
[Music]

1311
00:54:17,470 --> 00:54:14,000
okay we're exploring encounter in the

1312
00:54:19,450 --> 00:54:17,480
desert with Kevin Randall he's taking a

1313
00:54:22,930 --> 00:54:19,460
look at the case a new look and the

1314
00:54:25,420 --> 00:54:22,940
thing that got him going here is he

1315
00:54:27,250 --> 00:54:25,430
wanted to see in his investigation after

1316
00:54:29,650 --> 00:54:27,260
talking to these two people who were

1317
00:54:31,150 --> 00:54:29,660
giving the case a new look whether or

1318
00:54:33,670 --> 00:54:31,160
not there were other witnesses which

1319
00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:33,680
makes the case far more compelling and

1320
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:36,049
then later on we can talk about the

1321
00:54:40,510 --> 00:54:38,480
possible hoax theories that were bandied

1322
00:54:42,789 --> 00:54:40,520
about from this far back is full of

1323
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:42,799
class and more recently some other

1324
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:45,410
people so let's get back to that quick

1325
00:54:49,930 --> 00:54:47,210
comment how about opal grinder and the

1326
00:54:53,019 --> 00:54:49,940
story of the of the the carload of folks

1327
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:53,029
that evidently were coming down the

1328
00:54:57,940 --> 00:54:55,130
other way down the highway from Zamora

1329
00:55:00,039 --> 00:54:57,950
and they saw the thing leave and

1330
00:55:01,990 --> 00:55:00,049
mentioned it I think was it opal grinder

1331
00:55:04,029 --> 00:55:02,000
was either gas station owner it's been I

1332
00:55:05,980 --> 00:55:04,039
want he was I think it was the manager I

1333
00:55:07,630 --> 00:55:05,990
don't think he was the owner but but

1334
00:55:09,279 --> 00:55:07,640
history isn't quite as important and

1335
00:55:11,289 --> 00:55:09,289
here's why so we're talking about three

1336
00:55:13,510 --> 00:55:11,299
witnesses who allegedly called the

1337
00:55:15,190 --> 00:55:13,520
police station and I wanted to find out

1338
00:55:17,109 --> 00:55:15,200
who these witnesses were did somebody

1339
00:55:19,390 --> 00:55:17,119
call the police station so I I've now

1340
00:55:20,799 --> 00:55:19,400
brought the people into the case we got

1341
00:55:23,140 --> 00:55:20,809
Richard holder their captain Halldor

1342
00:55:25,420 --> 00:55:23,150
we've got the FBI agent burns there

1343
00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:25,430
they're talking to Zamora Holder writes

1344
00:55:30,309 --> 00:55:27,710
a report that very night within hours of

1345
00:55:31,630 --> 00:55:30,319
the sighting he may have written it at

1346
00:55:32,859 --> 00:55:31,640
two o'clock in the morning I think he

1347
00:55:34,180 --> 00:55:32,869
may have transmitted it to the Pentagon

1348
00:55:37,150 --> 00:55:34,190
at two o'clock in the morning in this

1349
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:37,160
report he says there were three people

1350
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,770
who called the police station prior to

1351
00:55:43,029 --> 00:55:41,839
Zamora calling in with a traffic

1352
00:55:45,069 --> 00:55:43,039
accident and what he thought was a

1353
00:55:45,789 --> 00:55:45,079
traffic accident they called called in

1354
00:55:48,309 --> 00:55:45,799
to the police station

1355
00:55:49,779 --> 00:55:48,319
prior to that Holder mentions that is

1356
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:49,789
reporting that they had seen a flame in

1357
00:55:53,589 --> 00:55:51,650
the sky or an object in the sky now we

1358
00:55:57,099 --> 00:55:53,599
got three additional witnesses and we've

1359
00:56:01,630 --> 00:55:57,109
got it corroborated that very night I am

1360
00:56:06,460 --> 00:56:01,640
absolutely stunned that nobody Holder

1361
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:06,470
burns the lorenz ins Hynek moody ray

1362
00:56:10,870 --> 00:56:09,290
Stanford nobody tried to

1363
00:56:12,790 --> 00:56:10,880
find those people and it wouldn't been

1364
00:56:14,650 --> 00:56:12,800
hard to find them because obviously they

1365
00:56:17,230 --> 00:56:14,660
lived in Socorro obviously they knew the

1366
00:56:19,900 --> 00:56:17,240
path the object had taken getting to

1367
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:19,910
that point the Arroyo where it landed

1368
00:56:24,130 --> 00:56:22,310
and takeoff you could have found those

1369
00:56:25,450 --> 00:56:24,140
people if you had to knock on doors I

1370
00:56:27,130 --> 00:56:25,460
couldn't have been that many doors to

1371
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:27,140
knock on and that would have been a

1372
00:56:31,390 --> 00:56:29,450
stunning bit of corroborating evidence

1373
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:31,400
the only thing we have now is holders

1374
00:56:35,380 --> 00:56:32,930
report saying yes people called in

1375
00:56:37,150 --> 00:56:35,390
nobody bothered to get the names nobody

1376
00:56:38,830 --> 00:56:37,160
bothered to get any information nobody

1377
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:38,840
bothered trying to find them but it's an

1378
00:56:43,540 --> 00:56:41,690
interesting bit of corroboration you get

1379
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:43,550
to opal grinder he's merely talking

1380
00:56:48,940 --> 00:56:46,480
about some people possibly from Colorado

1381
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:48,950
and I say possibly from Colorado because

1382
00:56:53,050 --> 00:56:50,570
they seem to think they were tourists

1383
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:53,060
heading home in Colorado at the time who

1384
00:56:57,370 --> 00:56:54,530
stopped by his gas station and talked

1385
00:56:59,140 --> 00:56:57,380
about it there's another story of people

1386
00:57:02,320 --> 00:56:59,150
at a separate gas station may have seen

1387
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:02,330
the same thing I was never able to get

1388
00:57:06,550 --> 00:57:04,970
it clear whether somebody had

1389
00:57:08,530 --> 00:57:06,560
misinterpreted the opal grinder story

1390
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:08,540
and put it in a different gas station

1391
00:57:11,740 --> 00:57:10,010
because the owner of the other gas

1392
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:11,750
station hasn't still be alive but we

1393
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:13,490
were Nabal able to get that connection

1394
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:15,290
made which would have been a wonderful

1395
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:17,810
bit of corroboration but it all was

1396
00:57:21,970 --> 00:57:20,450
sparked by Ben Moss antonio angie ola

1397
00:57:24,580 --> 00:57:21,980
telling me about these three witnesses

1398
00:57:25,660 --> 00:57:24,590
who had seen the object in the sky i was

1399
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:25,670
able to verify there were three

1400
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:28,490
witnesses the documentation is there to

1401
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:30,410
support support that what nobody

1402
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:32,450
bothered to do is get their names and

1403
00:57:37,540 --> 00:57:34,690
addresses which would have been great in

1404
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:37,550
1964 so the case moves a little bit

1405
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:41,210
better you can if you want to raise the

1406
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:43,040
bar on evidence and say yeah well you

1407
00:57:46,570 --> 00:57:44,450
don't know who they are you don't know

1408
00:57:49,210 --> 00:57:46,580
exactly what they said but i can

1409
00:57:51,370 --> 00:57:49,220
document that they did call the police

1410
00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:51,380
station because in the report holder

1411
00:57:57,250 --> 00:57:55,310
made within hours of Zamora returning to

1412
00:57:58,750 --> 00:57:57,260
the police station he puts it in a

1413
00:58:01,600 --> 00:57:58,760
report that went to the Pentagon and

1414
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:01,610
eventually to Project Blue Book and the

1415
00:58:05,260 --> 00:58:03,530
the report is about a half a page

1416
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:05,270
single-spaced and it's it's in the

1417
00:58:10,390 --> 00:58:07,730
project Bluebook files did you ever ask

1418
00:58:14,110 --> 00:58:10,400
ray stanford why he didn't follow up

1419
00:58:16,420 --> 00:58:14,120
this extra witness stuff more carefully

1420
00:58:19,730 --> 00:58:16,430
well if you read his book and I know you

1421
00:58:22,970 --> 00:58:19,740
have like many years ago

1422
00:58:25,330 --> 00:58:22,980
was with woody I keep on and say woody

1423
00:58:28,490 --> 00:58:25,340
Stroud the guy who was a reporter for a

1424
00:58:29,810 --> 00:58:28,500
radio station in Socorro I believe and

1425
00:58:33,050 --> 00:58:29,820
he'd interviewed Hynek and a number of

1426
00:58:34,430 --> 00:58:33,060
people and Ray met him at a restaurant

1427
00:58:37,010 --> 00:58:34,440
for dinner one night

1428
00:58:38,300 --> 00:58:37,020
within days of this happening while he

1429
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:38,310
was in the restaurant

1430
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:40,410
the reporter introduced him to two women

1431
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:41,490
who'd seen a thing

1432
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:44,400
and I asked ray about that and he could

1433
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:45,690
I don't know who they were I don't

1434
00:58:50,990 --> 00:58:48,330
remember who they were and I wonder if

1435
00:58:52,609 --> 00:58:51,000
they were in his notes and he said he

1436
00:58:54,050 --> 00:58:52,619
didn't know for sure and he couldn't

1437
00:58:56,359 --> 00:58:54,060
look at it well it would be interesting

1438
00:58:57,980 --> 00:58:56,369
to see if we could find them and he said

1439
00:58:59,810 --> 00:58:57,990
well there were middle-aged at the time

1440
00:59:01,760 --> 00:58:59,820
so they're probably long gone and I

1441
00:59:04,670 --> 00:59:01,770
figured that as well but I'm thinking if

1442
00:59:06,500 --> 00:59:04,680
we could have gotten the names we might

1443
00:59:10,070 --> 00:59:06,510
have found out where they lived and we

1444
00:59:12,109 --> 00:59:10,080
might have been able to track down some

1445
00:59:15,140 --> 00:59:12,119
other people from that neighborhood who

1446
00:59:16,730 --> 00:59:15,150
were alive at the time teenagers

1447
00:59:18,740 --> 00:59:16,740
people in their 20s we might have been

1448
00:59:21,140 --> 00:59:18,750
able to find some witnesses even though

1449
00:59:22,130 --> 00:59:21,150
we're now fifty years ago we might have

1450
00:59:25,010 --> 00:59:22,140
been able to find some additional

1451
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:25,020
witnesses but Ray was unable to help me

1452
00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:27,810
on that I don't know why nobody followed

1453
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:29,520
up on those three three people who'd

1454
00:59:34,250 --> 00:59:31,290
called the police station I I'm just

1455
00:59:38,599 --> 00:59:34,260
absolutely flabbergasted at that looking

1456
00:59:40,460 --> 00:59:38,609
at the airforce file on this it seemed

1457
00:59:42,410 --> 00:59:40,470
that they were attempting to do a

1458
00:59:44,750 --> 00:59:42,420
legitimate investigation they were

1459
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:44,760
trying to get to the bottom of this and

1460
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:47,490
you've got an FBI guy who's trained in

1461
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:50,010
in investigation you've got an heir an

1462
00:59:54,980 --> 00:59:52,770
army officer whose duties clearly aren't

1463
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:54,990
in that arena but he's doing the

1464
00:59:57,620 --> 00:59:56,880
investigation and sending reports to the

1465
00:59:59,870 --> 00:59:57,630
Pentagon

1466
01:00:01,640 --> 00:59:59,880
you've got the official Air Force

1467
01:00:03,470 --> 01:00:01,650
investigator on there Sergeant moody

1468
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:03,480
he's in the area and you've got J Allen

1469
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:03,890
Hynek

1470
01:00:08,750 --> 01:00:06,210
they know that these people are out

1471
01:00:10,330 --> 01:00:08,760
there and none of them bothered trying

1472
01:00:12,859 --> 01:00:10,340
to find them and I'm just absolutely

1473
01:00:15,260 --> 01:00:12,869
flabbergasted that nobody even the

1474
01:00:17,270 --> 01:00:15,270
lorenz ins who were very good at that

1475
01:00:18,710 --> 01:00:17,280
sort of thing didn't try the try to find

1476
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:18,720
these three people and the Lorenz ins

1477
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:19,890
had talked to holder

1478
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:21,930
you've got statements by holder and

1479
01:00:28,070 --> 01:00:24,330
burns in the APRA bulletin from May of

1480
01:00:28,980 --> 01:00:28,080
1964 I mean this is within weeks of the

1481
01:00:31,290 --> 01:00:28,990
landing

1482
01:00:32,580 --> 01:00:31,300
that they published this information so

1483
01:00:34,530 --> 01:00:32,590
they clearly talking to holder they've

1484
01:00:37,770 --> 01:00:34,540
clearly talked to Burns they clearly

1485
01:00:38,730 --> 01:00:37,780
talked to some aura when nobody tried to

1486
01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:38,740
find these people

1487
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:41,440
the Colorado tourists there was almost

1488
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:43,690
no chance of finding them because you

1489
01:00:48,210 --> 01:00:46,210
really don't know if they were really

1490
01:00:49,950 --> 01:00:48,220
from Colorado they may have may have

1491
01:00:51,660 --> 01:00:49,960
been I think they said the license plate

1492
01:00:53,820 --> 01:00:51,670
may have been from Colorado they weren't

1493
01:00:56,130 --> 01:00:53,830
sure where they're from so I mean that

1494
01:00:58,859 --> 01:00:56,140
would be very difficult to find I lived

1495
01:01:01,200 --> 01:00:58,869
in Colorado in 1964 I was growing up in

1496
01:01:04,190 --> 01:01:01,210
Colorado in 1964 it wasn't me or my

1497
01:01:06,780 --> 01:01:04,200
family I can tell you that but but the

1498
01:01:07,980 --> 01:01:06,790
other witnesses the ones that called the

1499
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:07,990
police station they should have been

1500
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:10,090
easily found III can't see you've taken

1501
01:01:14,250 --> 01:01:12,250
morning afternoon to find those people

1502
01:01:17,250 --> 01:01:14,260
and nobody bothered to try how to do

1503
01:01:19,140 --> 01:01:17,260
that well let's get past that because

1504
01:01:20,850 --> 01:01:19,150
obviously we can't do anything about it

1505
01:01:21,500 --> 01:01:20,860
now we have to live with what we can

1506
01:01:25,230 --> 01:01:21,510
find

1507
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:25,240
going through the case and obviously we

1508
01:01:30,510 --> 01:01:28,210
have that those symbols or whatever they

1509
01:01:32,970 --> 01:01:30,520
are that we're looking at and there's

1510
01:01:35,910 --> 01:01:32,980
been discussion about that did you find

1511
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:35,920
anything in terms of basic details the

1512
01:01:40,950 --> 01:01:37,690
sighting that turned out not to be

1513
01:01:45,060 --> 01:01:40,960
correct or amia to be changed little

1514
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:45,070
things little things that could easily

1515
01:01:50,250 --> 01:01:48,400
get lost in the translation of of the

1516
01:01:52,290 --> 01:01:50,260
events if you go back to the Air Force

1517
01:01:56,700 --> 01:01:52,300
file and you mentioned the symbols the

1518
01:01:59,160 --> 01:01:56,710
Air Force file is filled with the

1519
01:02:03,000 --> 01:01:59,170
symbols of two of them signed by Lonnie

1520
01:02:04,890 --> 01:02:03,010
Zamora of what he saw being somewhat

1521
01:02:07,010 --> 01:02:04,900
different than the the inverted V with

1522
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:07,020
the three lines through it there are

1523
01:02:12,990 --> 01:02:09,970
very they're actually in the official

1524
01:02:17,099 --> 01:02:13,000
file there's no real witness with I'm

1525
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:17,109
sorry no documentation for the inverted

1526
01:02:22,109 --> 01:02:19,330
V with the three lines to it the best we

1527
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:22,119
come up with in September of 1964 Hynek

1528
01:02:27,930 --> 01:02:26,170
had sent a letter and I forget who he

1529
01:02:29,250 --> 01:02:27,940
addressed it to and soon though it's in

1530
01:02:31,859 --> 01:02:29,260
the Blue Book file so it might have been

1531
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:31,869
to somebody there but he drew the

1532
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:33,850
inverted V and he drew two lines between

1533
01:02:37,830 --> 01:02:35,650
the legs and one line over the top which

1534
01:02:39,180 --> 01:02:37,840
is not quite the same thing as that and

1535
01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:39,190
that's the closest we've come every time

1536
01:02:42,490 --> 01:02:41,440
you find these symbol represented in the

1537
01:02:44,020 --> 01:02:42,500
file

1538
01:02:45,730 --> 01:02:44,030
represented with the arc and the

1539
01:02:49,750 --> 01:02:45,740
arrowhead type thing and the line

1540
01:02:51,250 --> 01:02:49,760
underneath there are there's that sort

1541
01:02:53,850 --> 01:02:51,260
of thing I think you know let's let's

1542
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:53,860
let's before we go too much further

1543
01:02:58,150 --> 01:02:56,210
let's explain to listeners that may not

1544
01:03:00,880 --> 01:02:58,160
be as up to speed on the case as some of

1545
01:03:04,210 --> 01:03:00,890
our longtime listeners and describe the

1546
01:03:06,220 --> 01:03:04,220
scenario why we even have two different

1547
01:03:08,820 --> 01:03:06,230
versions of the symbol what why don't

1548
01:03:11,410 --> 01:03:08,830
you go in and give your your particular

1549
01:03:13,810 --> 01:03:11,420
explanation for that and then maybe

1550
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:13,820
maybe Jean and I'll have a comment but

1551
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:15,290
before I'll do that we're gonna have to

1552
01:03:19,690 --> 01:03:17,530
split for a couple of pieces of business

1553
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:19,700
but if you want to avoid the pieces of

1554
01:03:23,230 --> 01:03:21,290
business by the way you could subscribe

1555
01:03:25,630 --> 01:03:23,240
to the power cast plus and get the

1556
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:25,640
version free of network dads go to plus

1557
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:28,370
site the power cast com that's plus dot

1558
01:03:33,700 --> 01:03:32,090
the power cast dot-com we've got Kevin

1559
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:33,710
Randall author of encounter in the

1560
01:03:41,050 --> 01:03:36,170
desert with Jean and Chris you're in the

1561
01:03:41,060 --> 01:03:47,349
[Music]

1562
01:03:52,790 --> 01:03:50,840
okay I'll admit it I'm not a cook not

1563
01:03:56,180 --> 01:03:52,800
even close but after a close encounter

1564
01:03:59,000 --> 01:03:56,190
with hellofresh I might just be ready to

1565
01:04:01,430 --> 01:03:59,010
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1584
01:04:53,270 --> 01:04:51,240
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1585
01:04:55,550 --> 01:04:53,280
will be facing this country my question

1586
01:04:57,470 --> 01:04:55,560
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1587
01:04:59,180 --> 01:04:57,480
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1588
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1590
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1591
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1592
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1596
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1597
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1604
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1607
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1608
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million ounces of silver this free book

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will explain it eight eight eight seven

1610
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seventy two twenty nine twenty nine this

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another antibiotic prescription that you

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1620
01:06:11,230 --> 01:06:08,300
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1622
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1625
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:22,310
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think of in the last decade that the

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stock market has destroyed retirement

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1629
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1630
01:06:32,530 --> 01:06:31,730
security that gold has provided for

1631
01:06:34,660 --> 01:06:32,540
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1632
01:06:36,790 --> 01:06:34,670
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01:06:39,190 --> 01:06:36,800
capital gold would like to introduce you

1634
01:06:41,530 --> 01:06:39,200
to the home storage gold IRA

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01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:43,369
the protection and tax benefits of an

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01:06:48,250 --> 01:06:46,250
LLC but the big difference in this IRA

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01:06:50,050 --> 01:06:48,260
is you invest in gold and you hold it in

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your possession you can't do that with

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stocks that's security you can transfer

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01:06:57,609 --> 01:06:55,369
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1645
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1646
01:07:10,870 --> 01:07:07,910
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1647
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seven seven eight nine eight hundred

1648
01:07:15,550 --> 01:07:13,280
five three five seven seven eight nine

1649
01:07:19,329 --> 01:07:15,560
that's eight hundred five thirty five

1650
01:07:21,250 --> 01:07:19,339
seventy seven eighty nine the answer to

1651
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being in control of your own health care

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01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:24,470
is freedom from insurance become part of

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01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:26,450
a group of self-pay patients that come

1654
01:07:30,130 --> 01:07:28,010
together to share in each other's

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01:07:31,750 --> 01:07:30,140
medical expenses individual share

1656
01:07:33,370 --> 01:07:31,760
amounts begin at one hundred seven

1657
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dollars a month and three hundred forty

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seven four families choose from three

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01:07:38,620 --> 01:07:36,980
health sharing programs poetic

1660
01:07:40,599 --> 01:07:38,630
treatments may be eligible for sharing

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01:07:42,940 --> 01:07:40,609
see guidelines discount programs

1662
01:07:45,940 --> 01:07:42,950
available for dental vision and pharmacy

1663
01:07:50,250 --> 01:07:45,950
go to every day on call org that Liberty

1664
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:53,260
we'd like to hear from you if you have a

1665
01:07:59,200 --> 01:07:55,250
comment or question about the para cast

1666
01:08:02,620 --> 01:07:59,210
sent it to news at the para cast com

1667
01:08:04,660 --> 01:08:02,630
that's news at the para cast calm and

1668
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:04,670
don't forget to visit our famous para

1669
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:07,850
cast community forums at forum dot the

1670
01:08:16,180 --> 01:08:13,730
para cast calm so Chris raised a point

1671
01:08:18,940 --> 01:08:16,190
for Kevin Randle to follow up on as we

1672
01:08:22,420 --> 01:08:18,950
continue with the new investigations

1673
01:08:25,749 --> 01:08:22,430
into Saqqara New Mexico Kevin if you go

1674
01:08:27,990 --> 01:08:25,759
to the APRA bulletin from May 1964 and

1675
01:08:32,890 --> 01:08:28,000
you read what Holder had to say and what

1676
01:08:35,650 --> 01:08:32,900
Byrnes had to say Holder suggested to

1677
01:08:38,079 --> 01:08:35,660
Zamora and others that they not release

1678
01:08:39,999 --> 01:08:38,089
what the exact symbol was because that

1679
01:08:41,260 --> 01:08:40,009
way if there were copycats are people

1680
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:41,270
coming for it and suggest I saw the

1681
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:43,130
object and they could ask him what the

1682
01:08:46,930 --> 01:08:44,650
symbol looked like they wouldn't know

1683
01:08:48,309 --> 01:08:46,940
because that information been withheld

1684
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:48,319
the Lorenzen thought that was a good

1685
01:08:53,440 --> 01:08:50,690
idea and I'd point that out because I

1686
01:08:54,670 --> 01:08:53,450
think I think one of the things well I'm

1687
01:08:57,610 --> 01:08:54,680
not gonna say that I'm not sure about

1688
01:08:59,140 --> 01:08:57,620
that there was this story that the Air

1689
01:09:02,019 --> 01:08:59,150
Force had suppressed what the symbol

1690
01:09:03,190 --> 01:09:02,029
looked like a high-neck denied that and

1691
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:03,200
the truth of the matter is the Air Force

1692
01:09:07,329 --> 01:09:05,210
wasn't the the entity that said that it

1693
01:09:08,710 --> 01:09:07,339
was Holder who was Army suggested and he

1694
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:08,720
suggested it for what I think is very

1695
01:09:13,749 --> 01:09:11,330
good reasons and the Lorenzen agreed the

1696
01:09:15,490 --> 01:09:13,759
other thing is Byrne suggested that some

1697
01:09:18,579 --> 01:09:15,500
or not mentioned the figures that he had

1698
01:09:20,769 --> 01:09:18,589
seen because that would open him up to

1699
01:09:22,960 --> 01:09:20,779
ridicule by other people who would think

1700
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:22,970
he was crazy and drunk at the time when

1701
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:26,810
he made the observation so the story

1702
01:09:30,249 --> 01:09:28,250
came out that there there wasn't any

1703
01:09:32,349 --> 01:09:30,259
alien scene there that was or they were

1704
01:09:35,130 --> 01:09:32,359
just some white coveralls in the

1705
01:09:37,990 --> 01:09:35,140
distance and he couldn't see any sort of

1706
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:38,000
features at all he just sort of saw

1707
01:09:42,670 --> 01:09:40,489
these white coveralls in the in the

1708
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:42,680
distance and this was all designed I

1709
01:09:48,910 --> 01:09:44,930
think not to suppress the information

1710
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:48,920
but really looking to save Lonnie Zamora

1711
01:09:51,940 --> 01:09:50,690
some aggravation from people who

1712
01:09:55,540 --> 01:09:51,950
wouldn't believe that he'd saw alien

1713
01:09:58,510 --> 01:09:55,550
creatures and to kind of provide a way

1714
01:10:00,010 --> 01:09:58,520
of people or for them to determine

1715
01:10:01,959 --> 01:10:00,020
whether or not people had seen the same

1716
01:10:03,939 --> 01:10:01,969
thing that Ronnie had seen with the

1717
01:10:06,189 --> 01:10:03,949
same symbol on it so the suppression of

1718
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:06,199
the information and I there has been

1719
01:10:10,689 --> 01:10:08,449
some discussion in various places about

1720
01:10:12,069 --> 01:10:10,699
it being a conspiracy by the government

1721
01:10:15,459 --> 01:10:12,079
to hide the information I think it was

1722
01:10:16,540 --> 01:10:15,469
more of really them at these two

1723
01:10:19,270 --> 01:10:16,550
entities who were government

1724
01:10:22,299 --> 01:10:19,280
representatives an FBI agent in the Army

1725
01:10:23,859 --> 01:10:22,309
officer to to help out in the

1726
01:10:26,649 --> 01:10:23,869
investigation rather than suppress

1727
01:10:30,609 --> 01:10:26,659
information the other thing is within a

1728
01:10:33,189 --> 01:10:30,619
couple of weeks a few days of this one

1729
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:33,199
is amore had gone to the city attorney

1730
01:10:36,969 --> 01:10:35,210
to talk about the sighting because he

1731
01:10:38,049 --> 01:10:36,979
wanted to make make sure that he wasn't

1732
01:10:39,430 --> 01:10:38,059
going to get into trouble for any of

1733
01:10:42,939 --> 01:10:39,440
this and he described what he had seen

1734
01:10:45,549 --> 01:10:42,949
and in the room was a a paralegal named

1735
01:10:48,069 --> 01:10:45,559
Baca and his son was something of an

1736
01:10:50,229 --> 01:10:48,079
artist 14 year old Ricky Baca and so

1737
01:10:54,370 --> 01:10:50,239
they described exactly what Zamora seen

1738
01:10:56,799 --> 01:10:54,380
banca drew the the object and Bacchus

1739
01:10:59,109 --> 01:10:56,809
father took it back to the city attorney

1740
01:11:01,779 --> 01:10:59,119
and we are to some morons immoral look a

1741
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:01,789
that's basically what I saw and then he

1742
01:11:07,509 --> 01:11:05,090
directed Bacchus father to draw what the

1743
01:11:10,569 --> 01:11:07,519
symbol looked like on it when you see

1744
01:11:12,160 --> 01:11:10,579
that picture from the Socorro newspaper

1745
01:11:14,859 --> 01:11:12,170
the symbols not on it but if you go back

1746
01:11:17,290 --> 01:11:14,869
to the may 1964 Apple bulletin that

1747
01:11:19,029 --> 01:11:17,300
pictures actually printed in the APRA

1748
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:19,039
bulletin so you can see the symbol on it

1749
01:11:26,020 --> 01:11:23,090
is well there so you've got a drawing of

1750
01:11:28,029 --> 01:11:26,030
exactly what Zamora saw based on so

1751
01:11:31,209 --> 01:11:28,039
Morris descriptions of what he had seen

1752
01:11:32,620 --> 01:11:31,219
with the symbol on it and and it gives

1753
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:32,630
you kind of an idea of what's going on

1754
01:11:36,219 --> 01:11:34,130
ray Stanford actually sent a letter to

1755
01:11:37,989 --> 01:11:36,229
dick Hall with that same symbol on it

1756
01:11:39,939 --> 01:11:37,999
saying this if you see the symbol the

1757
01:11:41,410 --> 01:11:39,949
the arc over the arrowhead symbol that's

1758
01:11:43,629 --> 01:11:41,420
the real one and if you see something

1759
01:11:46,270 --> 01:11:43,639
else that's a hoax he reversed himself

1760
01:11:47,859 --> 01:11:46,280
when he wrote his book mmm interesting

1761
01:11:50,140 --> 01:11:47,869
well the Hynek also I think it's in an

1762
01:11:51,399 --> 01:11:50,150
interview on the Donahue show he

1763
01:11:53,709 --> 01:11:51,409
mentioned that the symbol was the

1764
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:53,719
inverted triangle with the the three

1765
01:11:57,549 --> 01:11:56,210
lines I'm not it's it's a video

1766
01:11:59,350 --> 01:11:57,559
interview somewhere I'm not sure if it

1767
01:12:01,120 --> 01:11:59,360
was the Donaghy's show one but I think

1768
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:01,130
so at some point

1769
01:12:05,109 --> 01:12:03,650
Hynek cammarata that the the inverted V

1770
01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:05,119
with the three lie so it was printed in

1771
01:12:09,339 --> 01:12:07,760
newspapers and I found newspapers from

1772
01:12:11,410 --> 01:12:09,349
around the country that had that in it

1773
01:12:14,529 --> 01:12:11,420
but it seems that all the participants

1774
01:12:15,460 --> 01:12:14,539
in the investigation whether it is

1775
01:12:18,820 --> 01:12:15,470
holder or

1776
01:12:21,220 --> 01:12:18,830
burns or Zamora himself go with this

1777
01:12:22,780 --> 01:12:21,230
other symbol Hynek for some reason came

1778
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:22,790
up with this other thing and erased

1779
01:12:27,690 --> 01:12:24,770
effort I mean there's a letter that he

1780
01:12:30,610 --> 01:12:27,700
wrote in May of 1964 to dick Hall

1781
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:30,620
explaining the two different symbols and

1782
01:12:35,230 --> 01:12:33,650
the one the symbol with the arc over the

1783
01:12:36,550 --> 01:12:35,240
arrowhead that's the correct symbol and

1784
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:36,560
he says in the letter and if you see the

1785
01:12:39,970 --> 01:12:38,210
inverted B with the three lines through

1786
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:39,980
but that's not the right symbol in his

1787
01:12:46,090 --> 01:12:43,850
book he's got it reversed I believe and

1788
01:12:47,980 --> 01:12:46,100
and there's other documentation in the

1789
01:12:50,380 --> 01:12:47,990
project Bluebook files created at the

1790
01:12:52,900 --> 01:12:50,390
time not only did some more a draw the

1791
01:12:55,350 --> 01:12:52,910
symbol twice for the Blue Book files and

1792
01:12:58,660 --> 01:12:55,360
sign at both times but there is other

1793
01:13:01,630 --> 01:12:58,670
letters and reports in the Blue Book

1794
01:13:04,420 --> 01:13:01,640
files with that symbol in it in the in

1795
01:13:07,090 --> 01:13:04,430
the reports nobody really has the

1796
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:07,100
inverted 3b with the three lines through

1797
01:13:12,570 --> 01:13:09,170
it until you get to the unofficial file

1798
01:13:15,730 --> 01:13:12,580
and that that's another whole story

1799
01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:15,740
Carbon morado and if you go to the last

1800
01:13:21,010 --> 01:13:17,410
picture I think of

1801
01:13:23,740 --> 01:13:21,020
Quintanilla and the Blue Book staff it

1802
01:13:25,510 --> 01:13:23,750
the Blue Book offices you've got

1803
01:13:27,220 --> 01:13:25,520
Quintanilla sitting at the desk and they

1804
01:13:28,930 --> 01:13:27,230
got the secretary you've got sergeant

1805
01:13:31,690 --> 01:13:28,940
moody there and there's an officer

1806
01:13:34,660 --> 01:13:31,700
standing just off to off the right-hand

1807
01:13:37,690 --> 01:13:34,670
shoulder of Canton Ella that's Carmen

1808
01:13:40,830 --> 01:13:37,700
Morano Morano told me when I talked to

1809
01:13:43,150 --> 01:13:40,840
him that when Blue Book was winding down

1810
01:13:44,530 --> 01:13:43,160
they were packing up everything and they

1811
01:13:45,940 --> 01:13:44,540
were throwing away a lot or they were

1812
01:13:47,290 --> 01:13:45,950
gonna throw away a lot of files and

1813
01:13:49,450 --> 01:13:47,300
things and these were the personal files

1814
01:13:51,310 --> 01:13:49,460
of officers had been there and other

1815
01:13:53,890 --> 01:13:51,320
documentation that was not part of the

1816
01:13:55,150 --> 01:13:53,900
official file Morano kept it he thought

1817
01:13:56,140 --> 01:13:55,160
you know you didn't want it he didn't

1818
01:13:59,860 --> 01:13:56,150
think it should be thrown away it should

1819
01:14:01,590 --> 01:13:59,870
be kept Rob Mercer was periodically

1820
01:14:04,030 --> 01:14:01,600
searched and this is hilarious

1821
01:14:06,090 --> 01:14:04,040
Craigslist looking for UFO material on

1822
01:14:08,650 --> 01:14:06,100
it and he saw that somebody had a box of

1823
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:08,660
material from Project Blue Book for sale

1824
01:14:12,220 --> 01:14:10,730
so Mercer called the guy he said yeah I

1825
01:14:14,860 --> 01:14:12,230
still have it mercer sent him a hundred

1826
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:14,870
bucks guys sent them the box to him and

1827
01:14:20,440 --> 01:14:17,690
here was a whole bunch of stuff from

1828
01:14:24,580 --> 01:14:20,450
Project Blue Book Andy and it was a 200

1829
01:14:26,230 --> 01:14:24,590
page document about the Socorro landing

1830
01:14:27,550 --> 01:14:26,240
with with photographs and all kinds of

1831
01:14:28,279 --> 01:14:27,560
good stuff some of the photographs are

1832
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:28,289
in the book

1833
01:14:33,979 --> 01:14:31,289
so you can see what they look like but

1834
01:14:37,339 --> 01:14:33,989
in there there were two cards one of

1835
01:14:39,290 --> 01:14:37,349
them looks like a a taken from the

1836
01:14:41,509 --> 01:14:39,300
newspaper you know just written down

1837
01:14:43,939 --> 01:14:41,519
from a newspaper another one is a neater

1838
01:14:45,379 --> 01:14:43,949
version of the same same thing but

1839
01:14:48,229 --> 01:14:45,389
that's the inverted V with the three

1840
01:14:49,910 --> 01:14:48,239
lines right so in the unofficial file

1841
01:14:55,009 --> 01:14:49,920
you've got that documentation but it

1842
01:14:56,870 --> 01:14:55,019
looks to be it came from the from the

1843
01:14:58,759 --> 01:14:56,880
newspapers what's what's interesting and

1844
01:15:00,859 --> 01:14:58,769
I want to I want to give Rob Mercer a

1845
01:15:02,270 --> 01:15:00,869
shout out here simply because he did a

1846
01:15:05,359 --> 01:15:02,280
wonderful piece of detective work

1847
01:15:06,919 --> 01:15:05,369
finding out where that box came from he

1848
01:15:08,270 --> 01:15:06,929
bought it from a guy on Craigslist the

1849
01:15:09,879 --> 01:15:08,280
guy didn't know anything about it he

1850
01:15:12,740 --> 01:15:09,889
bought a bunch of stuff at a garage sale

1851
01:15:15,379 --> 01:15:12,750
some wood supplies something like that

1852
01:15:17,180 --> 01:15:15,389
and behind that was this box so he just

1853
01:15:20,839 --> 01:15:17,190
he took him along with the other stuff

1854
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:20,849
that he had bought he sent it to Mercer

1855
01:15:26,810 --> 01:15:24,210
who bought it Mercer discovered who had

1856
01:15:28,129 --> 01:15:26,820
owned the house and who fired to the

1857
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:28,139
people who were living it there which it

1858
01:15:32,959 --> 01:15:30,449
was Carmen Morano and managed to track

1859
01:15:34,819 --> 01:15:32,969
him down and found him found him and

1860
01:15:36,830 --> 01:15:34,829
talked to him in and Morano said I got a

1861
01:15:39,890 --> 01:15:36,840
lot of other stuff you wanted and he

1862
01:15:43,069 --> 01:15:39,900
said sure in that stuff that Morano sent

1863
01:15:44,629 --> 01:15:43,079
him was a complete index of the project

1864
01:15:46,580 --> 01:15:44,639
Bluebook files now if you've gone

1865
01:15:47,689 --> 01:15:46,590
through like like like to the eye

1866
01:15:50,330 --> 01:15:47,699
National Archives or you got the

1867
01:15:51,709 --> 01:15:50,340
microfilm versions of the index it's all

1868
01:15:54,830 --> 01:15:51,719
been redacted all the names had been

1869
01:15:56,689 --> 01:15:54,840
removed from that file I happen to have

1870
01:15:57,859 --> 01:15:56,699
all the names of people who reported

1871
01:15:59,540 --> 01:15:57,869
unidentified than some of the

1872
01:16:02,509 --> 01:15:59,550
photographic cases like that and I was

1873
01:16:03,979 --> 01:16:02,519
able to do that back in 1976 when the

1874
01:16:06,169 --> 01:16:03,989
files were Declassified and sent to

1875
01:16:08,270 --> 01:16:06,179
Maxwell and a friend of mine Bob Cornyn

1876
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:08,280
and I went down to Maxwell and went

1877
01:16:10,729 --> 01:16:09,690
through the index and we wrote down the

1878
01:16:12,850 --> 01:16:10,739
names of everybody in the unidentified

1879
01:16:15,859 --> 01:16:12,860
cases so we could put the names back in

1880
01:16:18,740 --> 01:16:15,869
but Mercer's got the complete index

1881
01:16:21,319 --> 01:16:18,750
without the names redacted which is a

1882
01:16:22,459 --> 01:16:21,329
wonderful find and he's got a lot of

1883
01:16:23,270 --> 01:16:22,469
other stuff you haven't had a chance to

1884
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:23,280
go through at all

1885
01:16:27,410 --> 01:16:25,530
we are gonna go through it all or some

1886
01:16:29,180 --> 01:16:27,420
of it a little bit of it with Kevin

1887
01:16:39,440 --> 01:16:29,190
Randall more to come with gene and Chris

1888
01:16:49,300 --> 01:16:43,330
thank you for listening to GCN

1889
01:16:51,419 --> 01:16:49,310
be sure to visit GCN live.com today want

1890
01:16:54,399 --> 01:16:51,429
revenge on the common housefly

1891
01:16:56,350 --> 01:16:54,409
well after 10,000 years someone has

1892
01:16:59,530 --> 01:16:56,360
finally come up with a better way the

1893
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bug assault a miniaturized shotgun which

1894
01:17:04,060 --> 01:17:01,580
utilizes ordinary table salt as

1895
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1896
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required 39.95 plus shipping and

1897
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handling use discount code GCN and

1898
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1899
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bug-a-salt calm fire your flyswatter and

1900
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get your bug assault today

1901
01:17:21,910 --> 01:17:19,699
water is the single most important thing

1902
01:17:24,070 --> 01:17:21,920
your body needs so you want to be sure

1903
01:17:26,950 --> 01:17:24,080
it's the best for you and your family

1904
01:17:29,290 --> 01:17:26,960
since 2005 thousands have depended on

1905
01:17:31,030 --> 01:17:29,300
murky purified water the Berkey guy

1906
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provides the lowest priced filtration

1907
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systems in every size for incredibly

1908
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delicious water now and in an emergency

1909
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:39,560
get to go Berkey calm or call eight

1910
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seven seven eight eight six three six

1911
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five three eight seven seven eight eight

1912
01:17:50,620 --> 01:17:48,580
six three six five three go Berkey calm

1913
01:17:52,660 --> 01:17:50,630
are you still looking for that one

1914
01:17:54,729 --> 01:17:52,670
iodine that you can really trust a

1915
01:17:56,649 --> 01:17:54,739
medical doctor endorsed product that is

1916
01:17:59,109 --> 01:17:56,659
backed by honest research and true

1917
01:18:02,080 --> 01:17:59,119
integrity of science then search no

1918
01:18:04,330 --> 01:18:02,090
further go to nutri medical comm for dr.

1919
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:04,340
bill deagles nutria die and proven time

1920
01:18:09,250 --> 01:18:06,650
and time again to be the very best

1921
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:09,260
iodine available for you nutria dine is

1922
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:11,810
the only tesla activated monatomic

1923
01:18:17,229 --> 01:18:14,770
plasma iodine in the world it optimizes

1924
01:18:18,970 --> 01:18:17,239
mitochondrial function and generation of

1925
01:18:20,770 --> 01:18:18,980
new mitochondria from totally

1926
01:18:22,540 --> 01:18:20,780
neutralizing the venom from a desert

1927
01:18:24,399 --> 01:18:22,550
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1928
01:18:25,990 --> 01:18:24,409
california to eliminating malaria

1929
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:26,000
parasites reported by medical

1930
01:18:30,070 --> 01:18:28,010
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1931
01:18:32,770 --> 01:18:30,080
bills nutria dine is simply the most

1932
01:18:34,750 --> 01:18:32,780
powerful healing formula there is nutria

1933
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:34,760
dine clears the body of all known

1934
01:18:39,189 --> 01:18:37,010
pathogens restores it to an alkaline

1935
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:39,199
state and even promote stem cell

1936
01:18:45,339 --> 01:18:41,449
regeneration order doctor bills nutria

1937
01:18:47,350 --> 01:18:45,349
dine today at Triple Eight - 1 to 88 71

1938
01:18:49,930 --> 01:18:47,360
or visit us online

1939
01:18:52,300 --> 01:18:49,940
for medical comm attention type 2

1940
01:18:55,180 --> 01:18:52,310
diabetics if you or a loved one is taken

1941
01:18:57,490 --> 01:18:55,190
invokana invoke Ahmet or invoke Ahmet XR

1942
01:18:59,620 --> 01:18:57,500
or other inhibitors for type 2 diabetes

1943
01:19:01,419 --> 01:18:59,630
and suffered amputation of the toes feet

1944
01:19:03,550 --> 01:19:01,429
or legs you may be entitled to

1945
01:19:05,950 --> 01:19:03,560
substantial financial compensation

1946
01:19:08,109 --> 01:19:05,960
the FDA has warned that invokana info

1947
01:19:10,450 --> 01:19:08,119
comment or in Bochum @xr and other

1948
01:19:12,399 --> 01:19:10,460
inhibitors for type 2 diabetes caused an

1949
01:19:14,590 --> 01:19:12,409
increased role in amputations of the

1950
01:19:16,899 --> 01:19:14,600
toes feet and legs if you or a loved one

1951
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:16,909
has taken invokana in BO comment or in

1952
01:19:21,399 --> 01:19:19,250
Bochum @xr or other inhibitors for type

1953
01:19:23,050 --> 01:19:21,409
2 diabetes and suffered amputation of

1954
01:19:24,669 --> 01:19:23,060
the toes feet or legs you may be

1955
01:19:27,580 --> 01:19:24,679
entitled to substantial financial

1956
01:19:29,890 --> 01:19:27,590
compensation act now time is limited to

1957
01:19:37,350 --> 01:19:29,900
file a claim for a free consultation and

1958
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:42,220
847-537-7000 again 847 576 a seven call

1959
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:43,730
now this is an advertisement a

1960
01:19:47,020 --> 01:19:45,770
non-attorney spokesperson wwww real test

1961
01:19:48,070 --> 01:19:47,030
comes responsible for this advertise my

1962
01:19:50,530 --> 01:19:48,080
principal office Las Vegas Nevada

1963
01:19:52,750 --> 01:19:50,540
warning if you're drowning in debt you

1964
01:19:54,250 --> 01:19:52,760
can't afford do not let the credit card

1965
01:19:56,500 --> 01:19:54,260
companies trick you into thinking that

1966
01:19:58,479 --> 01:19:56,510
you have to pay it all back because you

1967
01:20:00,129 --> 01:19:58,489
don't what the credit card companies

1968
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:00,139
don't want you to know is that there's

1969
01:20:04,450 --> 01:20:02,330
actually a way to get debt free without

1970
01:20:06,970 --> 01:20:04,460
paying off your entire debt or going

1971
01:20:08,709 --> 01:20:06,980
bankrupt if you have $5,000 or more in

1972
01:20:10,180 --> 01:20:08,719
credit card debt you now have the right

1973
01:20:12,129 --> 01:20:10,190
to let us settle that debt for a

1974
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:12,139
fraction of what you owe for free

1975
01:20:16,300 --> 01:20:14,210
information call credit associates now

1976
01:20:18,129 --> 01:20:16,310
one eight hundred nine five nine five

1977
01:20:19,959 --> 01:20:18,139
seven fifty nine we'll even show you how

1978
01:20:21,970 --> 01:20:19,969
much money you could save if you can't

1979
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:21,980
afford to pay off all your debt do not

1980
01:20:25,600 --> 01:20:23,690
let the credit card companies trick you

1981
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:25,610
into thinking that you have to call

1982
01:20:29,379 --> 01:20:27,650
credit associates now for free

1983
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:29,389
information on how to get debt free

1984
01:20:33,310 --> 01:20:31,250
faster than you ever thought possible

1985
01:20:35,350 --> 01:20:33,320
without debt consolidation or bankruptcy

1986
01:20:37,540 --> 01:20:35,360
we depend on your success and offer a

1987
01:20:50,140 --> 01:20:37,550
guarantee so there's no risk for free

1988
01:20:57,430 --> 01:20:55,169
[Music]

1989
01:20:59,200 --> 01:20:57,440
hi this is Bryce they've won the

1990
01:21:01,000 --> 01:20:59,210
producer of dark skies the co-author of

1991
01:21:03,100 --> 01:21:01,010
AD after disclosure and you are

1992
01:21:06,280 --> 01:21:03,110
listening to the para cast the gold

1993
01:21:13,190 --> 01:21:06,290
standard of paranormal radio

1994
01:21:16,490 --> 01:21:13,200
[Music]

1995
01:21:20,220 --> 01:21:16,500
we are kind of in the weeds now folks

1996
01:21:22,770 --> 01:21:20,230
focusing on all these details about the

1997
01:21:25,740 --> 01:21:22,780
Socorro case but the one thing I wanted

1998
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:25,750
to just go back on for a second as we

1999
01:21:30,810 --> 01:21:28,690
talk about this symbol and it's less so

2000
01:21:32,910 --> 01:21:30,820
of getting it right and we'll assume

2001
01:21:36,300 --> 01:21:32,920
what's now whatever it was intended to

2002
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:36,310
be whatever Lonnie Zamora said he saw is

2003
01:21:41,910 --> 01:21:39,610
there any commonality with any other UFO

2004
01:21:45,030 --> 01:21:41,920
case anywhere where anyone saw a similar

2005
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:45,040
symbol I couldn't find anything I know

2006
01:21:50,430 --> 01:21:47,770
that Benton Ben Watson and Tony Angelo

2007
01:21:52,740 --> 01:21:50,440
had done that research if you go through

2008
01:21:55,010 --> 01:21:52,750
the Blue Book files you'll see that they

2009
01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:55,020
they did the same thing at the time

2010
01:21:59,550 --> 01:21:57,370
trying to find a corporate logo or

2011
01:22:02,490 --> 01:21:59,560
something that would match that and that

2012
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:02,500
symbol has not appeared anywhere in a

2013
01:22:08,010 --> 01:22:04,930
legitimate case that I can find and so

2014
01:22:10,800 --> 01:22:08,020
that's kind of by itself and and neither

2015
01:22:12,450 --> 01:22:10,810
version actually whichever version you

2016
01:22:15,420 --> 01:22:12,460
want to accept is being authentic

2017
01:22:17,070 --> 01:22:15,430
I haven't found either one anywhere else

2018
01:22:19,380 --> 01:22:17,080
in in the UFO literature there's things

2019
01:22:20,940 --> 01:22:19,390
that kind of match sort of maybe just

2020
01:22:24,750 --> 01:22:20,950
about but there's really nothing that

2021
01:22:27,690 --> 01:22:24,760
that really is is dead-on for either

2022
01:22:28,650 --> 01:22:27,700
version of the symbol that is itself

2023
01:22:31,260 --> 01:22:28,660
kind of weird

2024
01:22:34,470 --> 01:22:31,270
are there any sightings of similarly

2025
01:22:36,450 --> 01:22:34,480
shaped objects anywhere oh absolutely

2026
01:22:38,310 --> 01:22:36,460
in the book I go into other sightings in

2027
01:22:41,250 --> 01:22:38,320
New Mexico at the same time and some of

2028
01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:41,260
them there was one in Lahman Madera New

2029
01:22:50,490 --> 01:22:45,850
Mexico which is north mostly north west

2030
01:22:53,010 --> 01:22:50,500
of Santa Fe maybe northeast of Santa Fe

2031
01:22:56,190 --> 01:22:53,020
but it took place well just directly

2032
01:22:57,140 --> 01:22:56,200
directly north of oho Caliente and right

2033
01:23:00,780 --> 01:22:57,150
on the Chama River

2034
01:23:03,350 --> 01:23:00,790
Ojo Caliente the hot eyes I tried to

2035
01:23:06,480 --> 01:23:03,360
translate the Spanish for him the

2036
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:06,490
sighting there of a landing as well a

2037
01:23:11,310 --> 01:23:07,930
similar type craft which the Air Force

2038
01:23:13,230 --> 01:23:11,320
wrote off as a fire in a dump which is

2039
01:23:14,910 --> 01:23:13,240
just absolutely ridiculous

2040
01:23:19,440 --> 01:23:14,920
and the guy that reported it to the

2041
01:23:21,060 --> 01:23:19,450
sheriff's office had not heard the news

2042
01:23:21,990 --> 01:23:21,070
about the Socorro landing hadn't made

2043
01:23:24,630 --> 01:23:22,000
the big news

2044
01:23:26,790 --> 01:23:24,640
so he obviously wasn't influenced by

2045
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:26,800
that but there are there are other other

2046
01:23:31,140 --> 01:23:28,810
landing cases that kind of match this

2047
01:23:32,910 --> 01:23:31,150
this object and that sort of thing

2048
01:23:36,090 --> 01:23:32,920
in the in the area there were a number

2049
01:23:38,190 --> 01:23:36,100
of hoaxes as well at the same time and I

2050
01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:38,200
tried to separate the hoaxes from the

2051
01:23:43,890 --> 01:23:39,760
legitimate sightings there was one guy

2052
01:23:48,270 --> 01:23:43,900
who claimed he'd fired six I mean 12 or

2053
01:23:49,770 --> 01:23:48,280
18 rounds from his pistol at a UFO and

2054
01:23:50,820 --> 01:23:49,780
the sheriff went out and investigated

2055
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:50,830
and said well you know the guy was

2056
01:23:55,050 --> 01:23:53,530
really drunk at the time and thought of

2057
01:23:57,030 --> 01:23:55,060
thought that was probably a hoax and I

2058
01:23:58,530 --> 01:23:57,040
kind of agree it's just you know there

2059
01:24:00,200 --> 01:23:58,540
was no crime committed he was firing his

2060
01:24:04,590 --> 01:24:00,210
pistol on his own land so nobody cared

2061
01:24:06,900 --> 01:24:04,600
but there are other sightings in the

2062
01:24:09,780 --> 01:24:06,910
area of similar type craft some of with

2063
01:24:12,360 --> 01:24:09,790
names a task it was one and I go into

2064
01:24:15,830 --> 01:24:12,370
detail in the book as well that took

2065
01:24:18,870 --> 01:24:15,840
place maybe three or four hours later

2066
01:24:20,730 --> 01:24:18,880
just west of Socorro where they'd seen

2067
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:20,740
seen something in the in the sky that

2068
01:24:24,780 --> 01:24:22,330
resembled what Zamorin seen so it

2069
01:24:27,300 --> 01:24:24,790
happened within hours of Samora seeing

2070
01:24:31,020 --> 01:24:27,310
it but it was maybe 50 60 miles away

2071
01:24:32,850 --> 01:24:31,030
from Socorro so you know you've got it

2072
01:24:35,940 --> 01:24:32,860
in the in the area you've got it in the

2073
01:24:37,860 --> 01:24:35,950
time frame but you don't you don't have

2074
01:24:39,450 --> 01:24:37,870
a direct connection to Socorro sighting

2075
01:24:41,250 --> 01:24:39,460
so there were sightings of a similar

2076
01:24:42,540 --> 01:24:41,260
craft in the area at the time and

2077
01:24:44,670 --> 01:24:42,550
there's names attached to some of those

2078
01:24:46,620 --> 01:24:44,680
sightings they just aren't as exciting

2079
01:24:48,480 --> 01:24:46,630
as as the Socorro sighting because

2080
01:24:51,510 --> 01:24:48,490
you've got the object landed it's left

2081
01:24:53,910 --> 01:24:51,520
landing traces it's burned the partially

2082
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:53,920
burned the landing site you've got the

2083
01:24:58,650 --> 01:24:56,410
tube alien creatures the other sightings

2084
01:25:00,210 --> 01:24:58,660
are mainly of the craft in the sky and

2085
01:25:03,270 --> 01:25:00,220
so they're not quite as exciting as this

2086
01:25:06,870 --> 01:25:03,280
Tamura a case but what about that same

2087
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:06,880
kind of object in other places you can

2088
01:25:11,730 --> 01:25:08,410
look through the UFO literature and you

2089
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:11,740
can find similar objects being seen and

2090
01:25:14,700 --> 01:25:12,730
I think it's always a matter of

2091
01:25:17,250 --> 01:25:14,710
perspective if you go to the level land

2092
01:25:19,110 --> 01:25:17,260
case from 1957 and you're looking at

2093
01:25:20,340 --> 01:25:19,120
that you know people talked about it

2094
01:25:22,410 --> 01:25:20,350
being torpedo-shaped

2095
01:25:23,730 --> 01:25:22,420
or it's sort of a teardrop shape they're

2096
01:25:25,140 --> 01:25:23,740
things like that and I always thought it

2097
01:25:26,670 --> 01:25:25,150
was a matter of perspective that they

2098
01:25:29,250 --> 01:25:26,680
saw the object that if you saw a

2099
01:25:31,230 --> 01:25:29,260
cylindrical e shaped object sort of at a

2100
01:25:33,330 --> 01:25:31,240
45-degree angle it would look a little

2101
01:25:35,109 --> 01:25:33,340
bit different than if you saw it dead-on

2102
01:25:36,729 --> 01:25:35,119
from from one end or the other or

2103
01:25:38,949 --> 01:25:36,739
you were standing perpendicular to it

2104
01:25:41,139 --> 01:25:38,959
you could get the impression of it being

2105
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:41,149
different shapes although it's the same

2106
01:25:45,339 --> 01:25:43,010
object it's a matter of perspective and

2107
01:25:48,310 --> 01:25:45,349
I think when you look at some of the

2108
01:25:50,049 --> 01:25:48,320
sightings that we have for in the

2109
01:25:52,209 --> 01:25:50,059
decades afterward you've got objects

2110
01:25:54,310 --> 01:25:52,219
that are quite similar to what Zamora

2111
01:25:56,229 --> 01:25:54,320
saw but it's always some kind of a

2112
01:25:57,850 --> 01:25:56,239
matter of perspective if you want to cut

2113
01:25:59,139 --> 01:25:57,860
some slack for people like that seeing

2114
01:26:01,149 --> 01:25:59,149
it from from a slightly different

2115
01:26:03,399 --> 01:26:01,159
perspective but I actually had a

2116
01:26:08,259 --> 01:26:03,409
sighting of a giant try and find

2117
01:26:10,689 --> 01:26:08,269
chicken-egg March 27 2005 did you take

2118
01:26:12,969 --> 01:26:10,699
photographs I ran inside to grab my

2119
01:26:15,790 --> 01:26:12,979
camera and wait time I got on and gone

2120
01:26:18,729 --> 01:26:15,800
out of sight over my house I wish I had

2121
01:26:20,290 --> 01:26:18,739
that was a chicken or egg problem well

2122
01:26:23,139 --> 01:26:20,300
there's six other witnesses that saw it

2123
01:26:25,209 --> 01:26:23,149
from directly above them I saw it from

2124
01:26:27,879 --> 01:26:25,219
probably two miles away is about a

2125
01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:27,889
thousand twelve hundred feet up I just

2126
01:26:33,310 --> 01:26:30,050
got in brand new contact lenses buy a

2127
01:26:33,850 --> 01:26:33,320
2015 vision I was three o'clock in the

2128
01:26:37,449 --> 01:26:33,860
afternoon

2129
01:26:39,219 --> 01:26:37,459
and one end was slightly pointed like a

2130
01:26:47,409 --> 01:26:39,229
chicken egg the other end was was round

2131
01:26:51,219 --> 01:26:47,419
her no wings you see I was just it was

2132
01:26:54,069 --> 01:26:51,229
about 30 feet long and the people in the

2133
01:26:55,929 --> 01:26:54,079
canyon said it was longer 40 just 60

2134
01:26:57,609 --> 01:26:55,939
feet they thought and they were they

2135
01:27:00,909 --> 01:26:57,619
were closer it flew directly over over

2136
01:27:02,589 --> 01:27:00,919
them so I'm not sure who was right but

2137
01:27:06,009 --> 01:27:02,599
was unmistakable

2138
01:27:08,379 --> 01:27:06,019
moved with a slight squirting motion it

2139
01:27:12,609 --> 01:27:08,389
wasn't going very fast only 70 miles an

2140
01:27:15,189 --> 01:27:12,619
hour maybe my figure again was just

2141
01:27:16,419 --> 01:27:15,199
maybe slightly under two miles away are

2142
01:27:19,119 --> 01:27:16,429
you believe my best daylight sighting

2143
01:27:20,679 --> 01:27:19,129
and I've had a few I think a lot of

2144
01:27:22,449 --> 01:27:20,689
times when you get the discrepancies of

2145
01:27:24,159 --> 01:27:22,459
multiple witness sightings that is all a

2146
01:27:26,229 --> 01:27:24,169
matter of perspective and level and had

2147
01:27:28,359 --> 01:27:26,239
people at 13 different locations seeing

2148
01:27:29,649 --> 01:27:28,369
the thing and and there they talked

2149
01:27:31,359 --> 01:27:29,659
about an egg-shaped craft and they

2150
01:27:32,770 --> 01:27:31,369
talked about a cylindrical shaped craft

2151
01:27:35,319 --> 01:27:32,780
I think it's a matter of perspective I

2152
01:27:36,909 --> 01:27:35,329
don't think that is sufficient reason to

2153
01:27:38,139 --> 01:27:36,919
reject the sighting saying well they

2154
01:27:39,879 --> 01:27:38,149
didn't see the same thing because it

2155
01:27:42,159 --> 01:27:39,889
looked different and are you saying it

2156
01:27:43,509 --> 01:27:42,169
it morphed into an egg-shaped object no

2157
01:27:45,339 --> 01:27:43,519
I'm saying it's from they saw it from a

2158
01:27:47,529 --> 01:27:45,349
different perspective and it's at night

2159
01:27:48,860 --> 01:27:47,539
and the thing is glowing so clearly if

2160
01:27:51,920 --> 01:27:48,870
you see it from a different perspective

2161
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:51,930
it's going to look different to you and

2162
01:27:56,780 --> 01:27:54,930
I think I think that that looks a lot

2163
01:27:59,740 --> 01:27:56,790
about that I think it's Ted Phillips who

2164
01:28:02,990 --> 01:27:59,750
had done the catalog of landing traces

2165
01:28:04,820 --> 01:28:03,000
and I know he told me at one point that

2166
01:28:06,140 --> 01:28:04,830
if you described the landing traces he

2167
01:28:08,060 --> 01:28:06,150
can tell you what the object looked like

2168
01:28:10,970 --> 01:28:08,070
and I thought that's a wonderful piece

2169
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:10,980
of information because it suggests some

2170
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:13,770
sort of repeatability that that people

2171
01:28:17,630 --> 01:28:15,570
seeing the object are seeing the same

2172
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:17,640
sort of thing over a matter of years and

2173
01:28:23,870 --> 01:28:20,610
that the landing gear is something that

2174
01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:23,880
is consistent from craft to craft I mean

2175
01:28:27,980 --> 01:28:25,970
if you see Lonnie Zamora saw four

2176
01:28:30,220 --> 01:28:27,990
landing gear other people have seen a

2177
01:28:33,640 --> 01:28:30,230
triangle a triangular shaped tray

2178
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:33,650
landing gear it gives a different

2179
01:28:40,400 --> 01:28:36,570
profession but but but Phillips had said

2180
01:28:42,110 --> 01:28:40,410
that you could he could tell you what

2181
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:42,120
the craft would look like based on the

2182
01:28:46,360 --> 01:28:44,730
landing landing impressions and I think

2183
01:28:49,070 --> 01:28:46,370
that's an important piece of

2184
01:28:50,840 --> 01:28:49,080
investigative information yeah

2185
01:28:52,070 --> 01:28:50,850
absolutely well let's see you know now

2186
01:28:54,170 --> 01:28:52,080
that we're talking about physical

2187
01:28:56,900 --> 01:28:54,180
evidence here let's let's get in and

2188
01:29:01,520 --> 01:28:56,910
talk about what exactly was left behind

2189
01:29:04,370 --> 01:29:01,530
by the object at Socorro there seemed to

2190
01:29:07,130 --> 01:29:04,380
be a footprint footprint impressions of

2191
01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:07,140
small feet there was a bladed metal

2192
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:11,930
scraped off onto a rock which was I

2193
01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:16,410
think discovered by Stanford and also

2194
01:29:22,790 --> 01:29:20,010
burnt Chico bushes Rey also collected

2195
01:29:25,190 --> 01:29:22,800
pieces of paper from the Arroyo that

2196
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:25,200
seemed to have microscopic very

2197
01:29:30,770 --> 01:29:28,170
well-defined burn marks circular burn

2198
01:29:32,480 --> 01:29:30,780
marks in them let's talk about that a

2199
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:32,490
little bit well I think the important

2200
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:35,130
thing is the landing gear impressions

2201
01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:37,530
there were four of those and according

2202
01:29:43,130 --> 01:29:40,530
to the compression test made by them by

2203
01:29:46,370 --> 01:29:43,140
the military it showed something that

2204
01:29:48,290 --> 01:29:46,380
was very heavy had been had set down on

2205
01:29:51,230 --> 01:29:48,300
the ground there and the landing gear

2206
01:29:53,900 --> 01:29:51,240
had created impressions in the ground

2207
01:29:55,130 --> 01:29:53,910
it wasn't an excavation it was something

2208
01:29:56,930 --> 01:29:55,140
that had been pressed heavily into the

2209
01:29:58,550 --> 01:29:56,940
ground so that kind of rules out part of

2210
01:30:00,560 --> 01:29:58,560
the hoax scenario because you had to

2211
01:30:03,050 --> 01:30:00,570
have something very heavy sitting there

2212
01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:03,060
to do that and Philip Glass had done

2213
01:30:07,310 --> 01:30:04,530
something that really kind of made me

2214
01:30:09,169 --> 01:30:07,320
laugh in one of his books he had a like

2215
01:30:11,209 --> 01:30:09,179
a brillo pad with knitting needles stuck

2216
01:30:14,149 --> 01:30:11,219
in it and he had he'd laid out on a flat

2217
01:30:16,280 --> 01:30:14,159
surface the shape of the landing gear

2218
01:30:18,140 --> 01:30:16,290
and it was very asymmetrical they said

2219
01:30:19,939 --> 01:30:18,150
well who would build a craft with this

2220
01:30:22,310 --> 01:30:19,949
asymmetrically landing gear and I'm

2221
01:30:24,709 --> 01:30:22,320
thinking alien creatures more

2222
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:24,719
possibilities with gene and Chris and

2223
01:30:37,710 --> 01:30:28,570
Kevin Randall you're in libera cast

2224
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thank you for listening to GCN

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2328
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2329
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cast the gold standard of paranormal

2330
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2331
01:35:10,990 --> 01:35:08,740
[Music]

2332
01:35:14,080 --> 01:35:11,000
so we're looking over the Socorro New

2333
01:35:15,820 --> 01:35:14,090
Mexico case and Kevin Randle describes

2334
01:35:19,090 --> 01:35:15,830
it all in a book called encounter in the

2335
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:19,100
desert we're looking now at the landing

2336
01:35:24,340 --> 01:35:22,010
traces now the pieces this piece of

2337
01:35:25,720 --> 01:35:24,350
metal then grace Stanford recovered any

2338
01:35:28,750 --> 01:35:25,730
of this other stuff anything look

2339
01:35:31,780 --> 01:35:28,760
unusual or was it all conventional let

2340
01:35:34,570 --> 01:35:31,790
me get to that in my own bizarre way

2341
01:35:37,330 --> 01:35:34,580
that sounds bizarre because I want to go

2342
01:35:39,730 --> 01:35:37,340
back a minute to Philip Glass's brillo

2343
01:35:41,200 --> 01:35:39,740
pad and what I would have class and

2344
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:41,210
brillo pads I understand there's a

2345
01:35:45,460 --> 01:35:43,730
peculiar relationship but I wanted I

2346
01:35:47,190 --> 01:35:45,470
just wanted to say you know he laid it

2347
01:35:49,990 --> 01:35:47,200
out on a flat surface he did not

2348
01:35:52,000 --> 01:35:50,000
compensate for the terrain and when he

2349
01:35:53,500 --> 01:35:52,010
compensated for the terrain the act the

2350
01:35:55,120 --> 01:35:53,510
a landing gear was actually symmetrical

2351
01:35:59,020 --> 01:35:55,130
is all I really wanted to say about that

2352
01:36:00,520 --> 01:35:59,030
yeah you've got to look at those sort of

2353
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:00,530
things when you're doing it so that this

2354
01:36:06,640 --> 01:36:04,010
is important and and the impressions

2355
01:36:08,800 --> 01:36:06,650
there was a burn bush underneath the

2356
01:36:11,740 --> 01:36:08,810
flame that came out of the object which

2357
01:36:13,870 --> 01:36:11,750
knifed into the ground DISA Morris said

2358
01:36:15,970 --> 01:36:13,880
it wasn't like an exhaust from a rocket

2359
01:36:17,650 --> 01:36:15,980
that would that would hit the ground and

2360
01:36:19,570 --> 01:36:17,660
then flatten out and splay along the

2361
01:36:21,370 --> 01:36:19,580
ground he said it went right into the

2362
01:36:24,070 --> 01:36:21,380
ground and the important thing is there

2363
01:36:27,190 --> 01:36:24,080
it only burned one half of the bush one

2364
01:36:29,530 --> 01:36:27,200
side was was smoking the other half

2365
01:36:31,120 --> 01:36:29,540
wasn't and I think Sheva said that they

2366
01:36:33,490 --> 01:36:31,130
went down and when he touched the bush

2367
01:36:36,040 --> 01:36:33,500
it was cool to the touch it wasn't like

2368
01:36:38,500 --> 01:36:36,050
something had been burned there was no

2369
01:36:40,290 --> 01:36:38,510
evidence of accelerants and the Air

2370
01:36:42,460 --> 01:36:40,300
Force tested for that holder took

2371
01:36:43,930 --> 01:36:42,470
samples that very night hold heard

2372
01:36:45,430 --> 01:36:43,940
captain holder took samples that night

2373
01:36:46,720 --> 01:36:45,440
one of the questions I had asked was

2374
01:36:48,010 --> 01:36:46,730
what happened to those samples and

2375
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:48,020
nobody seemed to know and going through

2376
01:36:49,960 --> 01:36:49,250
the Bluebook files I found out what

2377
01:36:52,300 --> 01:36:49,970
happened to him

2378
01:36:54,910 --> 01:36:52,310
she gave him two Hynek those samples

2379
01:36:56,950 --> 01:36:54,920
were taken to the Air Force labs and

2380
01:36:58,690 --> 01:36:56,960
they found no no evidence of accelerants

2381
01:37:00,340 --> 01:36:58,700
on the ground so they had nothing they

2382
01:37:02,290 --> 01:37:00,350
do they couldn't say what had caused the

2383
01:37:04,660 --> 01:37:02,300
burning there was no chemical residue

2384
01:37:08,710 --> 01:37:04,670
there that they could identify and

2385
01:37:10,180 --> 01:37:08,720
that's an important point as well well

2386
01:37:13,330 --> 01:37:10,190
especially if you look at the the the

2387
01:37:15,730 --> 01:37:13,340
reason and Anthony Bugatti acclaim that

2388
01:37:18,850 --> 01:37:15,740
fireworks were used and this was a hoax

2389
01:37:20,520 --> 01:37:18,860
with a balloon that kind of negates that

2390
01:37:22,709 --> 01:37:20,530
particular scenario I

2391
01:37:24,689 --> 01:37:22,719
gonna try to ignore his hoax scenario

2392
01:37:26,729 --> 01:37:24,699
because it just really doesn't hold much

2393
01:37:28,830 --> 01:37:26,739
water but we could we can go there in a

2394
01:37:31,859 --> 01:37:28,840
minute if you if you so desire the other

2395
01:37:33,959 --> 01:37:31,869
thing is ray stanford was there within

2396
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:33,969
days of the sighting he got there I

2397
01:37:38,339 --> 01:37:36,489
think on the same day that Hynek did

2398
01:37:39,689 --> 01:37:38,349
Hynek got there on Tuesday evening I

2399
01:37:41,069 --> 01:37:39,699
think ray got there on Tuesday evening

2400
01:37:44,010 --> 01:37:41,079
he was even got there later in the day

2401
01:37:46,410 --> 01:37:44,020
hi Nick went out or talked to the the

2402
01:37:49,109 --> 01:37:46,420
people that night Tuesday evening a ray

2403
01:37:51,330 --> 01:37:49,119
didn't he had an interview set up with

2404
01:37:53,069 --> 01:37:51,340
Lonnie the next morning with the

2405
01:37:54,569 --> 01:37:53,079
Wednesday morning after the sighting the

2406
01:37:57,000 --> 01:37:54,579
deciding took place on a Friday if you

2407
01:37:58,589 --> 01:37:57,010
want to keep the the day straight the

2408
01:38:00,359 --> 01:37:58,599
first time he called I think they said

2409
01:38:02,339 --> 01:38:00,369
that Lonnie was asleep and the second

2410
01:38:05,370 --> 01:38:02,349
time he called Lonnie wasn't there so

2411
01:38:07,410 --> 01:38:05,380
ray went to the police station found out

2412
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:07,420
Lonnie was out on the Glen decide he

2413
01:38:10,620 --> 01:38:09,010
went out there the police were gonna

2414
01:38:14,339 --> 01:38:10,630
chase him off and hunting says no let

2415
01:38:16,680 --> 01:38:14,349
him stay so ray had brought materials I

2416
01:38:18,660 --> 01:38:16,690
envelopes or jars to collect samples and

2417
01:38:20,250 --> 01:38:18,670
Hynek asked him for a couple of those

2418
01:38:23,310 --> 01:38:20,260
but I think really didn't need it

2419
01:38:24,959 --> 01:38:23,320
because he had yet ham so so holdin

2420
01:38:29,339 --> 01:38:24,969
samples I don't know why I can't say

2421
01:38:31,500 --> 01:38:29,349
holdin samples for analysis but while

2422
01:38:33,870 --> 01:38:31,510
they were there Lonnie pointed to some

2423
01:38:35,939 --> 01:38:33,880
metallic residue on one of the rocks

2424
01:38:40,649 --> 01:38:35,949
there and nobody seemed to be interested

2425
01:38:42,629 --> 01:38:40,659
but Ray and they've all then left to go

2426
01:38:45,140 --> 01:38:42,639
to a radio interview it was in hynek's

2427
01:38:48,899 --> 01:38:45,150
hotel room or somebody's hotel room and

2428
01:38:51,510 --> 01:38:48,909
Stanford is there kind of dancing around

2429
01:38:53,279 --> 01:38:51,520
one wanted to leave because he wants to

2430
01:38:56,010 --> 01:38:53,289
get back to the site with this rock is

2431
01:38:58,200 --> 01:38:56,020
holding this metallic debris when the

2432
01:39:01,069 --> 01:38:58,210
interview is over he went back there was

2433
01:39:03,569 --> 01:39:01,079
nobody around he collected the sample

2434
01:39:06,060 --> 01:39:03,579
collected it in newspapers took it back

2435
01:39:09,410 --> 01:39:06,070
to Phoenix with the idea of taking it to

2436
01:39:12,689 --> 01:39:09,420
are getting the the metallic residue

2437
01:39:14,580 --> 01:39:12,699
examined the mistake he made and he and

2438
01:39:16,950 --> 01:39:14,590
he mentions this in his book is his

2439
01:39:19,339 --> 01:39:16,960
doctor a doctor living next door I don't

2440
01:39:21,629 --> 01:39:19,349
know if he what sort of doctor he was

2441
01:39:24,390 --> 01:39:21,639
wanted to see it and they took it

2442
01:39:26,220 --> 01:39:24,400
outside and he was looking at it and the

2443
01:39:27,839 --> 01:39:26,230
biggest biggest piece of the metallic

2444
01:39:29,279 --> 01:39:27,849
debris fell off in the grass and they

2445
01:39:30,370 --> 01:39:29,289
spent hours looking for it and couldn't

2446
01:39:32,050 --> 01:39:30,380
find it but

2447
01:39:33,850 --> 01:39:32,060
there were still little smudges or

2448
01:39:37,149 --> 01:39:33,860
little samples on the rock and they

2449
01:39:39,729 --> 01:39:37,159
eventually took it to Washington DC and

2450
01:39:42,129 --> 01:39:39,739
with dick Hall arranged for a nightcap

2451
01:39:44,919 --> 01:39:42,139
to take a look at it not night cap night

2452
01:39:47,439 --> 01:39:44,929
NASA much more impressive having NASA

2453
01:39:49,660 --> 01:39:47,449
look at it than I cap for analysis and

2454
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:49,670
then then the story goes yeah they took

2455
01:39:53,770 --> 01:39:51,050
it to the Goddard Space Flight Center

2456
01:39:54,610 --> 01:39:53,780
mature materials division yes yes

2457
01:39:57,250 --> 01:39:54,620
exactly

2458
01:39:59,470 --> 01:39:57,260
NASA as opposed to my camp but my cap is

2459
01:40:01,270 --> 01:39:59,480
involved because Stanford was my cap and

2460
01:40:03,100 --> 01:40:01,280
Hall was my cap then there's a

2461
01:40:06,250 --> 01:40:03,110
disagreement and this all came out in

2462
01:40:08,770 --> 01:40:06,260
the MUFON bulletin at one point ray says

2463
01:40:12,370 --> 01:40:08,780
that I think the guy's name was Frankel

2464
01:40:13,660 --> 01:40:12,380
had done the analysis and told him later

2465
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:13,670
on that he didn't know what it was it

2466
01:40:19,149 --> 01:40:16,250
was something really unusual and then

2467
01:40:21,700 --> 01:40:19,159
days later Frankel is gone and the

2468
01:40:23,379 --> 01:40:21,710
report was it was just aluminum or

2469
01:40:26,950 --> 01:40:23,389
something like that nothing nothing

2470
01:40:28,780 --> 01:40:26,960
really spectacular NICAP in its UFO

2471
01:40:30,760 --> 01:40:28,790
investigator which is their publication

2472
01:40:32,709 --> 01:40:30,770
and I think it's I think it's the

2473
01:40:34,930 --> 01:40:32,719
September issue be to hold will hold me

2474
01:40:36,729 --> 01:40:34,940
on that but there there's a one a couple

2475
01:40:38,140 --> 01:40:36,739
of paragraphs on one of the pages in

2476
01:40:40,360 --> 01:40:38,150
there that gives the analysis from

2477
01:40:43,300 --> 01:40:40,370
Goddard showing there was nothing

2478
01:40:46,149 --> 01:40:43,310
important ray maintains that in his

2479
01:40:48,129 --> 01:40:46,159
discussions with Frankel he was at first

2480
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:48,139
told that it was very unusual they

2481
01:40:52,629 --> 01:40:51,050
didn't know what it was and then Frankel

2482
01:40:54,220 --> 01:40:52,639
disappears from the story Frankel has

2483
01:40:57,490 --> 01:40:54,230
transferred out and he can't get a hold

2484
01:41:00,220 --> 01:40:57,500
of Frankel ray has no tapes of the

2485
01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:00,230
conversation which given the time frame

2486
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:03,170
is not surprising but he apparently had

2487
01:41:06,790 --> 01:41:05,330
it has its notes from that conversation

2488
01:41:08,830 --> 01:41:06,800
so there's a lot of that stuff going on

2489
01:41:11,470 --> 01:41:08,840
it's oh yeah and that's the thing with

2490
01:41:15,220 --> 01:41:11,480
all UFO cases are really good cases you

2491
01:41:17,050 --> 01:41:15,230
get these these divergent agendas

2492
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:17,060
whether it's the Air Force wanting to

2493
01:41:21,990 --> 01:41:19,130
prove there's nothing to it or not

2494
01:41:24,700 --> 01:41:22,000
wanting to stay away from the

2495
01:41:26,530 --> 01:41:24,710
spectacular cases with aliens and all of

2496
01:41:29,200 --> 01:41:26,540
that stuff because they feel it in it

2497
01:41:31,600 --> 01:41:29,210
hurts their credibility to the lorenz

2498
01:41:33,970 --> 01:41:31,610
ins who are more accepting of the really

2499
01:41:35,770 --> 01:41:33,980
bizarre cases so you know you've got to

2500
01:41:37,810 --> 01:41:35,780
look at all of that sort of thing

2501
01:41:39,060 --> 01:41:37,820
did ray tell you that he thinks he may

2502
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:39,070
have found another

2503
01:41:44,890 --> 01:41:42,410
metal sample there are talking to Ben

2504
01:41:48,340 --> 01:41:44,900
moss Tony Angie Ola and and in ray

2505
01:41:50,590 --> 01:41:48,350
Stanford there are other minut metals on

2506
01:41:52,990 --> 01:41:50,600
the on the rock that they're going to

2507
01:41:54,729 --> 01:41:53,000
have try to get analyzed and in today's

2508
01:41:56,410 --> 01:41:54,739
environment they can take much smaller

2509
01:41:59,770 --> 01:41:56,420
samples for the analysis than they

2510
01:42:01,870 --> 01:41:59,780
needed back in I think it was in the

2511
01:42:05,020 --> 01:42:01,880
1960s when they were doing the original

2512
01:42:07,270 --> 01:42:05,030
analysis so so you know the technology

2513
01:42:10,540 --> 01:42:07,280
is improved to a point where they can

2514
01:42:12,670 --> 01:42:10,550
take much much smaller samples and get

2515
01:42:15,790 --> 01:42:12,680
some good analysis and I know that

2516
01:42:18,400 --> 01:42:15,800
there's a fair of foot two to to do that

2517
01:42:20,650 --> 01:42:18,410
and and I look forward I look forward to

2518
01:42:23,229 --> 01:42:20,660
to see what that has to say but that

2519
01:42:25,750 --> 01:42:23,239
hasn't come to fruition yet also the

2520
01:42:28,750 --> 01:42:25,760
vitrified the crystals in the rock

2521
01:42:32,290 --> 01:42:28,760
samples too that it appears that the the

2522
01:42:34,510 --> 01:42:32,300
quartz the glass was was melted in the

2523
01:42:37,030 --> 01:42:34,520
samples there is there are some very

2524
01:42:39,670 --> 01:42:37,040
good physical evidence that is in the

2525
01:42:41,500 --> 01:42:39,680
possession of private researchers that

2526
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:41,510
suggests we might be able to gather

2527
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:43,610
something something more the thing that

2528
01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:46,370
always scares me about recovering

2529
01:42:50,770 --> 01:42:49,010
samples of possible samples of an alien

2530
01:42:52,510 --> 01:42:50,780
spacecraft however you have to come in

2531
01:42:54,880 --> 01:42:52,520
to them is this gonna they're gonna go

2532
01:42:57,550 --> 01:42:54,890
to the analysis and say yeah this is

2533
01:42:59,740 --> 01:42:57,560
aluminum big deal doesn't mean it's not

2534
01:43:02,350 --> 01:42:59,750
from an alien spacecraft just means that

2535
01:43:05,950 --> 01:43:02,360
the composition of that particular

2536
01:43:08,740 --> 01:43:05,960
sample can't be a asset is not of

2537
01:43:10,540 --> 01:43:08,750
terrestrial manufacture because it is

2538
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:10,550
something common to earth so you can't

2539
01:43:14,380 --> 01:43:12,650
say ah we now have physical evidence of

2540
01:43:16,810 --> 01:43:14,390
extraterrestrial visitation because this

2541
01:43:22,720 --> 01:43:16,820
sample cannot have been manufactured on

2542
01:43:24,550 --> 01:43:22,730
earth and and it just kind of hurts the

2543
01:43:25,840 --> 01:43:24,560
whole investigation because well yeah

2544
01:43:27,790 --> 01:43:25,850
they looked at it and it turned out to

2545
01:43:31,209 --> 01:43:27,800
be aluminum yeah well that's all well

2546
01:43:33,220 --> 01:43:31,219
and good but that doesn't mean it wasn't

2547
01:43:34,330 --> 01:43:33,230
extraterrestrial but to prove the

2548
01:43:35,920 --> 01:43:34,340
extra-terrestrial you have to have

2549
01:43:37,630 --> 01:43:35,930
something much more spectacular and

2550
01:43:40,660 --> 01:43:37,640
another you begin to talk about isotopic

2551
01:43:42,250 --> 01:43:40,670
ratios of the the structure of the

2552
01:43:43,870 --> 01:43:42,260
alloys and the structures of the metal

2553
01:43:45,550 --> 01:43:43,880
and when you get into that then you

2554
01:43:47,110 --> 01:43:45,560
might be able to get into something that

2555
01:43:49,040 --> 01:43:47,120
is suggestive of the extra-terrestrial

2556
01:43:52,040 --> 01:43:49,050
well it's regular aluminum

2557
01:43:53,240 --> 01:43:52,050
except the isotopic ratios now is a

2558
01:43:57,140 --> 01:43:53,250
little bit different than you would

2559
01:43:58,790 --> 01:43:57,150
expect on trusty manufactured metals you

2560
01:44:02,030 --> 01:43:58,800
know I want to get back to this here

2561
01:44:05,479 --> 01:44:02,040
because this frames the entire dilemma

2562
01:44:10,270 --> 01:44:05,489
and the UFO field we don't have evidence

2563
01:44:16,149 --> 01:44:10,280
of extraterrestrial alloys or anything

2564
01:44:19,330 --> 01:44:16,159
to go by but the problem that I see is

2565
01:44:23,330 --> 01:44:19,340
that we've always had competing agendas

2566
01:44:25,310 --> 01:44:23,340
and I think that really kind of messes

2567
01:44:26,959 --> 01:44:25,320
us up and I don't care whether you know

2568
01:44:29,839 --> 01:44:26,969
it's the Roswell case where you've got

2569
01:44:32,569 --> 01:44:29,849
Stan Friedman and Bill Moore and Don

2570
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:32,579
Schmidt and Tom Kerry and me and we all

2571
01:44:37,129 --> 01:44:35,610
kind of have our agendas at that

2572
01:44:38,569 --> 01:44:37,139
interfere with with with the

2573
01:44:41,149 --> 01:44:38,579
investigation and then you throw in the

2574
01:44:43,100 --> 01:44:41,159
Air Force which has its own agenda and

2575
01:44:45,169 --> 01:44:43,110
then you bring in people who want to be

2576
01:44:47,450 --> 01:44:45,179
involved in this great event their own

2577
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:47,460
agendas and it clutters off the

2578
01:44:52,609 --> 01:44:50,610
landscape and I try to advocate that we

2579
01:44:55,339 --> 01:44:52,619
need to get to the best evidence

2580
01:44:57,470 --> 01:44:55,349
possible to do that but when you get to

2581
01:44:59,120 --> 01:44:57,480
the really good cases you've always find

2582
01:45:01,520 --> 01:44:59,130
this toccata me and somebody is throwing

2583
01:45:04,310 --> 01:45:01,530
mud at it and it doesn't matter whether

2584
01:45:06,470 --> 01:45:04,320
the mud is legitimate or not and now we

2585
01:45:08,959 --> 01:45:06,480
move back to Philip Glass and Tony big

2586
01:45:12,609 --> 01:45:08,969
alia on the Socorro case let's do that

2587
01:45:15,379 --> 01:45:12,619
in our next segment more about these two

2588
01:45:17,780 --> 01:45:15,389
almost having similar agendas it seems

2589
01:45:20,060 --> 01:45:17,790
but we'll see Kevin Randall Jean

2590
01:45:28,430 --> 01:45:20,070
Steinberg Chris O'Brien you're in the

2591
01:45:36,820 --> 01:45:32,060
thank you for listening to GCS

2592
01:45:43,340 --> 01:45:40,070
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2602
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2607
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2608
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2609
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2610
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2639
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2640
01:48:03,360 --> 01:47:55,690
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2641
01:48:05,280 --> 01:48:03,370
Steinberg quick reminder we've had some

2642
01:48:07,920 --> 01:48:05,290
terrific episodes of after the power

2643
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cast part of the parish s + and recent

2644
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weeks John B Alexander and Micah Hanks

2645
01:48:19,410 --> 01:48:16,440
and Paul Kimball boy Paul Kimball

2646
01:48:21,420 --> 01:48:19,420
unfettered uncensored said a few things

2647
01:48:23,640 --> 01:48:21,430
that were not politically correct and

2648
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2649
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if you go to plus doctor para cast comm

2650
01:48:30,420 --> 01:48:28,060
for information we welcome your

2651
01:48:33,750 --> 01:48:30,430
subscriptions Kevin Randall wrote

2652
01:48:35,220 --> 01:48:33,760
encounter in the desert he has some part

2653
01:48:37,590 --> 01:48:35,230
of the book they're devoted to the

2654
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:37,600
claims that the Socorro New Mexico case

2655
01:48:41,490 --> 01:48:39,010
might have been a hoax

2656
01:48:44,220 --> 01:48:41,500
we start with Philip Glass and we get to

2657
01:48:47,340 --> 01:48:44,230
a more recent example of someone saying

2658
01:48:50,610 --> 01:48:47,350
it was a prank by some college students

2659
01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:50,620
let's go back to this if you're going to

2660
01:48:53,580 --> 01:48:51,970
do an investigation and there's

2661
01:48:55,620 --> 01:48:53,590
allegations of a hoax you have to

2662
01:48:58,830 --> 01:48:55,630
examine them to give a completely

2663
01:49:00,450 --> 01:48:58,840
rounded look at the case class claimed

2664
01:49:02,850 --> 01:49:00,460
that when he was down there in Socorro

2665
01:49:04,530 --> 01:49:02,860
nosing around people had told him that

2666
01:49:06,990 --> 01:49:04,540
it was a hoax and he needed to nose

2667
01:49:08,100 --> 01:49:07,000
around and and we mentioned Jerry Clark

2668
01:49:10,470 --> 01:49:08,110
and I hate to beat up Jerry Clark

2669
01:49:13,410 --> 01:49:10,480
because he does wonderful work and I

2670
01:49:15,750 --> 01:49:13,420
find his UFO encyclopedia a wonderful

2671
01:49:17,250 --> 01:49:15,760
reference that gives us an awful lot of

2672
01:49:20,370 --> 01:49:17,260
information but it also is full of

2673
01:49:22,470 --> 01:49:20,380
sources so that you get an idea of where

2674
01:49:23,970 --> 01:49:22,480
Jerry got all the information Jerry in

2675
01:49:25,980 --> 01:49:23,980
his book even mentions this that the

2676
01:49:29,640 --> 01:49:25,990
land where the thing landed was owned by

2677
01:49:32,040 --> 01:49:29,650
the mayor and class alleged that the

2678
01:49:34,590 --> 01:49:32,050
idea was this was worthless scrub land

2679
01:49:36,870 --> 01:49:34,600
but if it was the landing place of a

2680
01:49:38,620 --> 01:49:36,880
daylian spacecraft they could turn it

2681
01:49:40,570 --> 01:49:38,630
into a tourist attraction

2682
01:49:42,310 --> 01:49:40,580
and maybe they build a motel there and

2683
01:49:45,040 --> 01:49:42,320
then there would be places to buy hot

2684
01:49:46,420 --> 01:49:45,050
dogs and balloons and souvenirs and the

2685
01:49:48,220 --> 01:49:46,430
worthless scrubland would become

2686
01:49:50,500 --> 01:49:48,230
valuable so it was something cooked up

2687
01:49:52,750 --> 01:49:50,510
between the mayor of Socorro at the time

2688
01:49:55,650 --> 01:49:52,760
and Lonnie Zamora which is patently

2689
01:49:58,540 --> 01:49:55,660
ridiculous but that was class's

2690
01:50:01,390 --> 01:49:58,550
allegation nobody bothered to take a

2691
01:50:04,360 --> 01:50:01,400
look at the records who owned the land

2692
01:50:06,910 --> 01:50:04,370
to see if this was true and it turns out

2693
01:50:09,130 --> 01:50:06,920
a guy named Paul Hardin who lives in

2694
01:50:11,140 --> 01:50:09,140
Socorro look that up and discovered the

2695
01:50:12,670 --> 01:50:11,150
mayor didn't own the land it was owned

2696
01:50:14,980 --> 01:50:12,680
by a family and been held in family

2697
01:50:19,570 --> 01:50:14,990
trust for years and years and years the

2698
01:50:21,820 --> 01:50:19,580
idea for a tourist attraction came about

2699
01:50:23,080 --> 01:50:21,830
a year later and the Socorro City

2700
01:50:25,390 --> 01:50:23,090
Council thought well maybe this would be

2701
01:50:27,850 --> 01:50:25,400
a way of attracting people to Socorro

2702
01:50:29,860 --> 01:50:27,860
you have to remember Socorro was really

2703
01:50:31,470 --> 01:50:29,870
kind of out in the middle of nowhere and

2704
01:50:35,320 --> 01:50:31,480
it really wasn't a tourist destination

2705
01:50:38,500 --> 01:50:35,330
interstate 25 goes through Socorro now

2706
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:38,510
and the people zip by 75 miles an hour

2707
01:50:42,490 --> 01:50:40,850
unless they want to buy gas or they're

2708
01:50:43,780 --> 01:50:42,500
hungry so they stop and eat local

2709
01:50:45,850 --> 01:50:43,790
restaurant they've stopping by gas and

2710
01:50:47,050 --> 01:50:45,860
they're gone again and so the idea was

2711
01:50:49,390 --> 01:50:47,060
we'll create this a tourist attraction

2712
01:50:50,980 --> 01:50:49,400
and draw people into Socorro now they

2713
01:50:52,270 --> 01:50:50,990
have the Very Large Array which I always

2714
01:50:54,700 --> 01:50:52,280
called a whopping huge array which is

2715
01:50:56,170 --> 01:50:54,710
radio telescope out there on the plains

2716
01:50:58,210 --> 01:50:56,180
of San Agustin which is not that far

2717
01:51:00,340 --> 01:50:58,220
from Socorro so you get you get people

2718
01:51:02,860 --> 01:51:00,350
coming in and out of like that point

2719
01:51:04,660 --> 01:51:02,870
simply is the mayor didn't concoct this

2720
01:51:06,370 --> 01:51:04,670
with Lonnie Zamora to create a tourist

2721
01:51:08,830 --> 01:51:06,380
attraction the mayor didn't own the land

2722
01:51:11,770 --> 01:51:08,840
the idea was created by the City Council

2723
01:51:14,200 --> 01:51:11,780
a year after the landing took place and

2724
01:51:15,280 --> 01:51:14,210
it never came to fruition so that idea

2725
01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:15,290
is patently absurd

2726
01:51:20,170 --> 01:51:18,170
Tony big alia began his investigation

2727
01:51:21,820 --> 01:51:20,180
sometime later and he was going through

2728
01:51:23,740 --> 01:51:21,830
all kinds of documents and he found a

2729
01:51:25,900 --> 01:51:23,750
letter from and I forget the guy's first

2730
01:51:28,570 --> 01:51:25,910
names last name is Colgate and he was a

2731
01:51:30,130 --> 01:51:28,580
president of the New Mexico Institute of

2732
01:51:31,930 --> 01:51:30,140
minds and technology and that's not the

2733
01:51:34,480 --> 01:51:31,940
exact name of the University of the

2734
01:51:37,090 --> 01:51:34,490
college there but it's a mining

2735
01:51:39,460 --> 01:51:37,100
engineering college is what it is or

2736
01:51:42,130 --> 01:51:39,470
University and he had sent a letter to

2737
01:51:44,290 --> 01:51:42,140
Linus Pauling and Pauling is the guy who

2738
01:51:46,330 --> 01:51:44,300
was advocating vitamin C for those of

2739
01:51:47,740 --> 01:51:46,340
you who don't recognize they Nobel Nobel

2740
01:51:50,050 --> 01:51:47,750
laureate which is the important point

2741
01:51:51,990 --> 01:51:50,060
and so the idea was no more laureate

2742
01:51:53,550 --> 01:51:52,000
Linus Pauling was saying this Socorro

2743
01:51:55,530 --> 01:51:53,560
was a hoax well no it's actually a

2744
01:51:57,420 --> 01:51:55,540
letter from Colgate to Pauling so

2745
01:52:01,380 --> 01:51:57,430
appalling is irrelevant to the story

2746
01:52:03,630 --> 01:52:01,390
Colgate wasn't there in 1964 it was

2747
01:52:05,910 --> 01:52:03,640
another guy whose name escapes me but

2748
01:52:08,400 --> 01:52:05,920
it's all in the book as well

2749
01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:08,410
Hynek knew the guy talked to him about

2750
01:52:11,040 --> 01:52:09,970
it he said no it's not a student hoax

2751
01:52:13,110 --> 01:52:11,050
and I'm thinking you know if it had been

2752
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:13,120
a student hoax this guy would have told

2753
01:52:17,010 --> 01:52:14,890
Hynek on the sly it's a hoax

2754
01:52:19,200 --> 01:52:17,020
Hynek looked for evidence of a hoax

2755
01:52:21,000 --> 01:52:19,210
looked wanted to believe it was a hoax

2756
01:52:22,530 --> 01:52:21,010
this was before Hynek had his change of

2757
01:52:24,060 --> 01:52:22,540
heart and this is one of the cases that

2758
01:52:27,180 --> 01:52:24,070
caused him to have his change of heart

2759
01:52:29,460 --> 01:52:27,190
Hector quintanilla who was the chief of

2760
01:52:33,090 --> 01:52:29,470
Project Blue at the time in his memoir

2761
01:52:35,550 --> 01:52:33,100
said I looked at everything I wanted to

2762
01:52:39,240 --> 01:52:35,560
solve this case because it would be such

2763
01:52:41,480 --> 01:52:39,250
a boon to the UFO clubs that we couldn't

2764
01:52:44,430 --> 01:52:41,490
identify what it was and he had

2765
01:52:46,050 --> 01:52:44,440
clearances to go to Alamogordo and white

2766
01:52:47,730 --> 01:52:46,060
sands and look at all their classified

2767
01:52:49,350 --> 01:52:47,740
projects to see if it fit in he had a

2768
01:52:51,630 --> 01:52:49,360
briefing on the lunar lander and all of

2769
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:51,640
that stuff he said he couldn't find an

2770
01:52:55,980 --> 01:52:53,890
explanation for it he was he had to

2771
01:52:58,380 --> 01:52:55,990
label as unidentified which he didn't

2772
01:53:01,500 --> 01:52:58,390
want to do if there had been the

2773
01:53:03,360 --> 01:53:01,510
slightest taint of a hoax quintanilla

2774
01:53:04,920 --> 01:53:03,370
would have jumped all over that I think

2775
01:53:07,530 --> 01:53:04,930
Hynek at the time would have jumped all

2776
01:53:10,400 --> 01:53:07,540
over it right now we're we're still into

2777
01:53:12,780 --> 01:53:10,410
the process we're Bertoni has absolutely

2778
01:53:14,130 --> 01:53:12,790
convinced it's a hoax and he's talked to

2779
01:53:15,630 --> 01:53:14,140
some people who were involved in the

2780
01:53:17,130 --> 01:53:15,640
hoax he claims but he doesn't release

2781
01:53:19,680 --> 01:53:17,140
the information it hasn't released the

2782
01:53:22,920 --> 01:53:19,690
names some of the things that he has

2783
01:53:23,660 --> 01:53:22,930
said about this don't track with with

2784
01:53:26,850 --> 01:53:23,670
the evidence

2785
01:53:29,400 --> 01:53:26,860
Zamora supposedly was a police officer

2786
01:53:31,470 --> 01:53:29,410
disliked by the local college students

2787
01:53:34,050 --> 01:53:31,480
and high school students gee there's a

2788
01:53:35,970 --> 01:53:34,060
strange situation people that he's given

2789
01:53:38,520 --> 01:53:35,980
tickets to were annoyed at him Wow

2790
01:53:40,530 --> 01:53:38,530
I'm surprised it doesn't make any sense

2791
01:53:43,440 --> 01:53:40,540
how do you drag some more into this

2792
01:53:46,110 --> 01:53:43,450
amaura at the time the event began he

2793
01:53:48,780 --> 01:53:46,120
was chasing a speeder in Socorro and

2794
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:48,790
heard the roar and took off - there's no

2795
01:53:55,050 --> 01:53:52,810
way that a group of hoaxers would have

2796
01:53:57,690 --> 01:53:55,060
staged this thing does not in view of

2797
01:54:01,260 --> 01:53:57,700
the highway not in view of Zamora and

2798
01:54:03,480 --> 01:54:01,270
hope to suck him into this it's just a

2799
01:54:05,579 --> 01:54:03,490
preposterous explanation and the

2800
01:54:08,009 --> 01:54:05,589
evidence is very very weak

2801
01:54:10,469 --> 01:54:08,019
and I look at the the investigation was

2802
01:54:12,599 --> 01:54:10,479
taking place at the time by the people

2803
01:54:14,459 --> 01:54:12,609
qualified to it what their motivations

2804
01:54:17,219 --> 01:54:14,469
were hi Nick would have loved to hide

2805
01:54:19,859 --> 01:54:17,229
find a hoax Donald Menzel the great D

2806
01:54:22,049 --> 01:54:19,869
bunker the great skeptic and suggested

2807
01:54:24,119 --> 01:54:22,059
hoax to Heineken hynek's ed no I could

2808
01:54:25,559 --> 01:54:24,129
not find any evidence of a hoax we

2809
01:54:29,489 --> 01:54:25,569
looked for that sort of thing so I think

2810
01:54:31,589 --> 01:54:29,499
the ideas that it was a hoax aren't true

2811
01:54:33,599 --> 01:54:31,599
but if you want all the details of what

2812
01:54:35,129 --> 01:54:33,609
Toni says about the hoax I put them all

2813
01:54:36,779 --> 01:54:35,139
in the book with the references so that

2814
01:54:38,549 --> 01:54:36,789
you can take a look at that yourself

2815
01:54:40,439 --> 01:54:38,559
well the one thing that's that's

2816
01:54:43,739 --> 01:54:40,449
important to note is the weather during

2817
01:54:46,859 --> 01:54:43,749
that day had the object leaving the

2818
01:54:49,949 --> 01:54:46,869
landing site upwind and there was this a

2819
01:54:53,459 --> 01:54:49,959
fairly stiff breeze that day and the the

2820
01:54:56,699 --> 01:54:53,469
hoax idea is reliant on the on a large

2821
01:54:59,129 --> 01:54:56,709
balloon with some sort of pyrotechnic

2822
01:55:02,069 --> 01:54:59,139
display on the bottom of it

2823
01:55:04,619 --> 01:55:02,079
which would have been impossible with

2824
01:55:06,449 --> 01:55:04,629
the weather conditions on during that

2825
01:55:08,429 --> 01:55:06,459
day which which are fairly

2826
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:08,439
well-established I think in the the

2827
01:55:13,409 --> 01:55:10,530
files of the of the investigation

2828
01:55:14,879 --> 01:55:13,419
absolutely because I know honey but

2829
01:55:17,309 --> 01:55:14,889
class claimed that there was a guy

2830
01:55:19,229 --> 01:55:17,319
living a few hundred feet away from the

2831
01:55:21,389 --> 01:55:19,239
landing site who was home at the time

2832
01:55:23,040 --> 01:55:21,399
and said well I didn't hear any roar I

2833
01:55:26,069 --> 01:55:23,050
didn't see anything nothing was going on

2834
01:55:30,119 --> 01:55:26,079
there was no houses that close precisely

2835
01:55:32,239 --> 01:55:30,129
and the guy was downwind from from the

2836
01:55:35,250 --> 01:55:32,249
ah from from the landing site and

2837
01:55:37,439 --> 01:55:35,260
historian he was in the house or the

2838
01:55:41,099 --> 01:55:37,449
windows open and he would have heard it

2839
01:55:43,139 --> 01:55:41,109
he said that he went outside and he was

2840
01:55:45,540 --> 01:55:43,149
looking up at this site what motivated

2841
01:55:47,159 --> 01:55:45,550
you to go outside and he saw no activity

2842
01:55:49,799 --> 01:55:47,169
there but but the point is from the

2843
01:55:54,809 --> 01:55:49,809
point of the landing that that site had

2844
01:55:59,250 --> 01:55:54,819
people on it until way late Holder

2845
01:56:01,889 --> 01:55:59,260
called his deputy and got MPs out there

2846
01:56:05,399 --> 01:56:01,899
to cordon off the area that night the

2847
01:56:07,439 --> 01:56:05,409
State Police and other people Zamora and

2848
01:56:09,359 --> 01:56:07,449
Chavez and a number of other people

2849
01:56:11,129 --> 01:56:09,369
whose names escape me at the moment were

2850
01:56:13,529 --> 01:56:11,139
on the site until nearly seven o'clock

2851
01:56:17,009 --> 01:56:13,539
at night and I looked up when sundown

2852
01:56:18,880 --> 01:56:17,019
was in Socorro New Mexico and on April

2853
01:56:21,040 --> 01:56:18,890
24 1960

2854
01:56:23,080 --> 01:56:21,050
for and found out that they left just

2855
01:56:25,390 --> 01:56:23,090
about the time it would have been

2856
01:56:27,160 --> 01:56:25,400
getting completely dark but the MPs were

2857
01:56:29,020 --> 01:56:27,170
there guarding the air so this guy's

2858
01:56:30,580 --> 01:56:29,030
saying well I went up there I walked

2859
01:56:32,320 --> 01:56:30,590
aside I didn't see anything

2860
01:56:34,360 --> 01:56:32,330
excuse me you didn't see the military

2861
01:56:37,630 --> 01:56:34,370
there you didn't see the FBI you didn't

2862
01:56:39,940 --> 01:56:37,640
see the police there where were you

2863
01:56:41,650 --> 01:56:39,950
so this whole idea of a hoax and looking

2864
01:56:43,660 --> 01:56:41,660
at it is ridiculous they said it was a

2865
01:56:45,400 --> 01:56:43,670
lunar lander being tested and it was

2866
01:56:46,990 --> 01:56:45,410
being flown by a helicopter oh my god

2867
01:56:49,270 --> 01:56:47,000
good Lonnie Zamora not have seen a

2868
01:56:52,090 --> 01:56:49,280
helicopter but he's not have heard the

2869
01:56:53,650 --> 01:56:52,100
damn thing you know that think that was

2870
01:56:56,710 --> 01:56:53,660
a thing flying helicopters in Vietnam we

2871
01:56:58,990 --> 01:56:56,720
were very aware of the sound they've

2872
01:57:02,140 --> 01:56:59,000
made because it would alert the enemy

2873
01:57:03,580 --> 01:57:02,150
that we were coming and they would be

2874
01:57:05,860 --> 01:57:03,590
waiting for us with their weapons that's

2875
01:57:07,660 --> 01:57:05,870
why we tried to fly low at treetop level

2876
01:57:10,000 --> 01:57:07,670
because by the time they heard us coming

2877
01:57:12,280 --> 01:57:10,010
we were gone you know something here

2878
01:57:15,250 --> 01:57:12,290
maybe you were developing a silent

2879
01:57:16,180 --> 01:57:15,260
helicopter now that's not it you know

2880
01:57:19,000 --> 01:57:16,190
not at all

2881
01:57:21,430 --> 01:57:19,010
when the helicopter passes overhead here

2882
01:57:23,980 --> 01:57:21,440
I don't see black helicopters folks I

2883
01:57:26,350 --> 01:57:23,990
know it's there Kevin Randle Jean

2884
01:57:37,080 --> 01:57:26,360
Steinberg Chris O'Brien you're in the

2885
01:57:41,290 --> 01:57:39,550
attack of the rock ODEs has been

2886
01:57:43,210 --> 01:57:41,300
well-received by critics and readers

2887
01:57:46,090 --> 01:57:43,220
alike it's a thrill a minute story

2888
01:57:48,400 --> 01:57:46,100
you'll never forget a former US military

2889
01:57:50,680 --> 01:57:48,410
intelligence officer is haunted by

2890
01:57:53,230 --> 01:57:50,690
intense dreams about a beautiful woman

2891
01:57:56,080 --> 01:57:53,240
pleading for his help after a terrible

2892
01:57:58,210 --> 01:57:56,090
battle in outer space but the dreams

2893
01:58:00,010 --> 01:57:58,220
turn out to be true and thrust him into

2894
01:58:02,890 --> 01:58:00,020
a telepathic love affair with a woman

2895
01:58:05,230 --> 01:58:02,900
whose faraway planet is intent on

2896
01:58:08,050 --> 01:58:05,240
destroying the earth and now the

2897
01:58:10,510 --> 01:58:08,060
gripping tale continues in the coming of

2898
01:58:13,150 --> 01:58:10,520
the protectors it's the second book of

2899
01:58:15,310 --> 01:58:13,160
the rock codes trilogy a galaxy spanning

2900
01:58:18,400 --> 01:58:15,320
adventure that pits our hapless heroes

2901
01:58:20,200 --> 01:58:18,410
against powerful fanatical enemies that

2902
01:58:22,870 --> 01:58:20,210
threaten the lives of freedom loving

2903
01:58:25,620 --> 01:58:22,880
beings everywhere attack of the rock

2904
01:58:28,360 --> 01:58:25,630
ODEs and the coming of the protectors

2905
01:58:31,270 --> 01:58:28,370
classic science fiction at its best

2906
01:58:35,800 --> 01:58:31,280
available now for more details visit

2907
01:58:38,740 --> 01:58:35,810
raah codes calm that's our Ock o IDs

2908
01:58:40,690 --> 01:58:38,750
calm are you happy washing your hands

2909
01:58:42,790 --> 01:58:40,700
with harsh chemicals are you happy doing

2910
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2911
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2912
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2913
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2914
01:58:55,150 --> 01:58:51,800
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2915
01:58:57,250 --> 01:58:55,160
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2916
01:58:59,260 --> 01:58:57,260
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2917
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2918
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2919
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2920
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2921
01:59:09,850 --> 01:59:07,910
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2922
01:59:12,850 --> 01:59:09,860
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2923
01:59:15,430 --> 01:59:12,860
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2924
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2925
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2926
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2948
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2949
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2950
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2988
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we'd like to hear from you if you have a

2989
02:01:48,920 --> 02:01:45,240
comment or question about the para cast

2990
02:01:52,670 --> 02:01:48,930
sent it to news at the para cast com

2991
02:01:54,620 --> 02:01:52,680
that's news at the para cast calm and

2992
02:01:57,800 --> 02:01:54,630
don't forget to visit our famous para

2993
02:02:02,990 --> 02:01:57,810
cast community forums at forum dot the

2994
02:02:04,880 --> 02:02:03,000
para cast comm ok so it probably wasn't

2995
02:02:07,340 --> 02:02:04,890
a hoax in any way that we can determine

2996
02:02:10,970 --> 02:02:07,350
it certainly wasn't a helicopter

2997
02:02:13,340 --> 02:02:10,980
bringing over a lunar lander just for

2998
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:13,350
the heck of it in some place in New

2999
02:02:16,700 --> 02:02:14,970
Mexico but had nothing better to do

3000
02:02:19,640 --> 02:02:16,710
let's just carry that lunar lander is

3001
02:02:22,010 --> 02:02:19,650
there any possibility Kevin Randall that

3002
02:02:23,920 --> 02:02:22,020
maybe there was something conventional

3003
02:02:26,120 --> 02:02:23,930
involved some kind of test aircraft

3004
02:02:27,710 --> 02:02:26,130
quintanilla who was the chief of project

3005
02:02:30,380 --> 02:02:27,720
Bluebook can had a top-secret clearance

3006
02:02:32,200 --> 02:02:30,390
went to New Mexico with a letter to the

3007
02:02:34,760 --> 02:02:32,210
various base commanders in the various

3008
02:02:36,890 --> 02:02:34,770
security people the intelligence officer

3009
02:02:38,660 --> 02:02:36,900
saying I have clearance to look at

3010
02:02:41,450 --> 02:02:38,670
everything all the black projects you

3011
02:02:43,760 --> 02:02:41,460
guys got going on classified projects he

3012
02:02:46,940 --> 02:02:43,770
could find nothing and he talked about

3013
02:02:48,800 --> 02:02:46,950
it in his own memoirs and I quote

3014
02:02:50,780 --> 02:02:48,810
extensively from the memoirs in the book

3015
02:02:52,730 --> 02:02:50,790
so you can see exactly what quintanilla

3016
02:02:54,560 --> 02:02:52,740
had to say about this sort of thing he

3017
02:02:56,420 --> 02:02:54,570
could find absolutely nothing and he was

3018
02:02:58,460 --> 02:02:56,430
very disappointed he was sure that they

3019
02:03:01,390 --> 02:02:58,470
would fight he would find something the

3020
02:03:03,980 --> 02:03:01,400
lunar lander flying under its own power

3021
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:03,990
didn't fly until months after this took

3022
02:03:07,070 --> 02:03:05,730
place as I understand it and then it was

3023
02:03:09,050 --> 02:03:07,080
on the west coast it wasn't in New

3024
02:03:11,240 --> 02:03:09,060
Mexico what they were testing in New

3025
02:03:13,610 --> 02:03:11,250
Mexico was a mock-up of the lander and

3026
02:03:15,410 --> 02:03:13,620
it had to be moved around by helicopter

3027
02:03:18,710 --> 02:03:15,420
which is why I made a comment about that

3028
02:03:20,240 --> 02:03:18,720
but according to the logs from White

3029
02:03:22,970 --> 02:03:20,250
Sands Missile Range where they would be

3030
02:03:24,500 --> 02:03:22,980
testing this stuff that test would the

3031
02:03:27,320 --> 02:03:24,510
lunar lander took place in the morning

3032
02:03:28,670 --> 02:03:27,330
not late in the afternoon off range and

3033
02:03:30,560 --> 02:03:28,680
they wouldn't be testing the thing off

3034
02:03:32,450 --> 02:03:30,570
range they'd be testing it in the middle

3035
02:03:34,370 --> 02:03:32,460
of the range where they controlled the

3036
02:03:36,470 --> 02:03:34,380
environment completely and totally so I

3037
02:03:38,660 --> 02:03:36,480
mean it's just nothing there to suggest

3038
02:03:41,780 --> 02:03:38,670
that it was a hoax by anybody or a

3039
02:03:44,510 --> 02:03:41,790
mistaken craft from a black project and

3040
02:03:46,160 --> 02:03:44,520
even if it was by this point in time we

3041
02:03:49,220 --> 02:03:46,170
would know what that project was because

3042
02:03:50,960 --> 02:03:49,230
anything developed in 1964 s30

3043
02:03:52,729 --> 02:03:50,970
well out-of-date now and anybody who's

3044
02:03:53,960 --> 02:03:52,739
bought a computer and realizes the

3045
02:03:56,510 --> 02:03:53,970
moment you walk out of the store it's

3046
02:03:59,060 --> 02:03:56,520
obsolete would understand that

3047
02:04:02,570 --> 02:03:59,070
technology we dilip that developed fifty

3048
02:04:05,720 --> 02:04:02,580
years ago for the lunar landings would

3049
02:04:08,570 --> 02:04:05,730
be horribly obsolete that as they say is

3050
02:04:10,790 --> 02:04:08,580
that now Lonnie Zamora did he ever see

3051
02:04:13,460 --> 02:04:10,800
anything else or was this the one and

3052
02:04:15,920 --> 02:04:13,470
only time you think of Lonnie Zamora had

3053
02:04:23,560 --> 02:04:15,930
one land in his backyard and he had

3054
02:04:30,020 --> 02:04:27,530
so this young man he till the end of his

3055
02:04:31,820 --> 02:04:30,030
life my friend Bob core dad had gone Bob

3056
02:04:33,110 --> 02:04:31,830
had studied astronomy under Van Allen I

3057
02:04:34,430 --> 02:04:33,120
could say the same thing I took an

3058
02:04:36,770 --> 02:04:34,440
astronomy class when I was in college

3059
02:04:39,800 --> 02:04:36,780
under that Allen but Bob's Bob was a

3060
02:04:42,680 --> 02:04:39,810
studying physics under Van Allen James a

3061
02:04:44,840 --> 02:04:42,690
Van Allen the radiation belt guy and so

3062
02:04:46,220 --> 02:04:44,850
he was going to visit the Very Large

3063
02:04:48,680 --> 02:04:46,230
Array because he was interested in

3064
02:04:50,360 --> 02:04:48,690
astronomy and that's in Socorro which is

3065
02:04:54,770 --> 02:04:50,370
why I bring that up but he called Lonnie

3066
02:04:56,990 --> 02:04:54,780
Zamora and this would have been in the

3067
02:05:00,140 --> 02:04:57,000
1970s I think it was called Lonnie

3068
02:05:01,700 --> 02:05:00,150
Zamora and Zamora said l'amour said well

3069
02:05:03,110 --> 02:05:01,710
we're having a barbecue and you can come

3070
02:05:05,660 --> 02:05:03,120
out and visit me but we're not talking

3071
02:05:07,850 --> 02:05:05,670
about flying saucers so Samora was very

3072
02:05:10,550 --> 02:05:07,860
reticent to talk about it Paul Hardin

3073
02:05:13,790 --> 02:05:10,560
who lives in Socorro knew Lonnie Zamora

3074
02:05:15,320 --> 02:05:13,800
very well had it said that Lonnie Zamora

3075
02:05:17,330 --> 02:05:15,330
just wouldn't even talk to him about it

3076
02:05:20,210 --> 02:05:17,340
he just didn't want to want anything to

3077
02:05:22,310 --> 02:05:20,220
do with flying saucers so as I say if it

3078
02:05:23,810 --> 02:05:22,320
has landed in his backyard and he had

3079
02:05:25,970 --> 02:05:23,820
all the evidence in the free world that

3080
02:05:26,630 --> 02:05:25,980
he could get he could have needed he

3081
02:05:29,750 --> 02:05:26,640
wouldn't have said a word

3082
02:05:32,930 --> 02:05:29,760
did it affect his status at the police

3083
02:05:35,930 --> 02:05:32,940
department there the rumor is yeah it

3084
02:05:38,690 --> 02:05:35,940
did and you know people made fun of him

3085
02:05:42,050 --> 02:05:38,700
about that but if you go and read his

3086
02:05:44,000 --> 02:05:42,060
obituary which I did he stayed in the

3087
02:05:46,240 --> 02:05:44,010
police department for a number of years

3088
02:05:48,229 --> 02:05:46,250
after that and then he eventually

3089
02:05:50,060 --> 02:05:48,239
retired from the police department took

3090
02:05:52,700 --> 02:05:50,070
another city job and retired from that

3091
02:05:56,180 --> 02:05:52,710
he also was in the New Mexico National

3092
02:05:57,410 --> 02:05:56,190
Guard and deserved a long time in the

3093
02:05:59,240 --> 02:05:57,420
New Mexico National Guard I think it

3094
02:06:02,780 --> 02:05:59,250
retired from the Nevada New Mexico

3095
02:06:04,190 --> 02:06:02,790
National Guard as well and I know in the

3096
02:06:06,350 --> 02:06:04,200
everybody's making fun of the National

3097
02:06:08,270 --> 02:06:06,360
Guard but in in in the 21st century the

3098
02:06:10,820 --> 02:06:08,280
National Guard has a much more robust

3099
02:06:12,410 --> 02:06:10,830
role in our national defense and I

3100
02:06:14,900 --> 02:06:12,420
remember when I was serving in Iraq as

3101
02:06:16,730 --> 02:06:14,910
part of the Iowa National Guard we had a

3102
02:06:19,790 --> 02:06:16,740
cartoon taped to one of the bulletin

3103
02:06:22,070 --> 02:06:19,800
boards that had somebody trying to call

3104
02:06:24,020 --> 02:06:22,080
the Iowa National Guard and they were

3105
02:06:27,050 --> 02:06:24,030
saying yeah you need to call him in are

3106
02:06:28,730 --> 02:06:27,060
in Iraq because at the time by per

3107
02:06:30,170 --> 02:06:28,740
capita the Iowa National Guard had the

3108
02:06:32,720 --> 02:06:30,180
largest number of people deployed to

3109
02:06:35,360 --> 02:06:32,730
Iraq and that included our battalion and

3110
02:06:37,910 --> 02:06:35,370
at one point it was like 80% of the Iowa

3111
02:06:40,130 --> 02:06:37,920
National Guard was in Iraq so and we

3112
02:06:42,740 --> 02:06:40,140
were there for a year so the National

3113
02:06:44,960 --> 02:06:42,750
Guard's role had had morphed over the

3114
02:06:46,790 --> 02:06:44,970
years and it wasn't just this this joke

3115
02:06:48,680 --> 02:06:46,800
that everybody wanted to make it out to

3116
02:06:50,600 --> 02:06:48,690
be in the 60 but a very very robust

3117
02:06:53,930 --> 02:06:50,610
organization and Lonnie Zamora served in

3118
02:06:56,780 --> 02:06:53,940
it I believe for 20 years and retired

3119
02:06:59,750 --> 02:06:56,790
from that as well so I mean the sighting

3120
02:07:01,970 --> 02:06:59,760
didn't cause him to quit the police

3121
02:07:03,500 --> 02:07:01,980
department anything like that because he

3122
02:07:05,150 --> 02:07:03,510
stayed on for a long time after but I

3123
02:07:07,370 --> 02:07:05,160
know that there was some fallout from

3124
02:07:09,470 --> 02:07:07,380
from the report and people sometimes

3125
02:07:12,050 --> 02:07:09,480
make it a little bit of fun of him about

3126
02:07:14,420 --> 02:07:12,060
that well if he retired from three jobs

3127
02:07:16,520 --> 02:07:14,430
does that mean he had three pensions I

3128
02:07:19,790 --> 02:07:16,530
don't know how the New Mexico State

3129
02:07:21,170 --> 02:07:19,800
Employees pension fund works because he

3130
02:07:22,610 --> 02:07:21,180
would have been a police officer but it

3131
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:22,620
may have been may have fallen under the

3132
02:07:28,100 --> 02:07:25,650
state pension him or a pension employee

3133
02:07:30,380 --> 02:07:28,110
plan under the city of Socorro or the

3134
02:07:32,960 --> 02:07:30,390
county he probably would have had to one

3135
02:07:34,310 --> 02:07:32,970
from his civilian jobs and one from the

3136
02:07:37,150 --> 02:07:34,320
National Guard because they're

3137
02:07:40,420 --> 02:07:37,160
independent things did he have a widow

3138
02:07:44,150 --> 02:07:40,430
children still alive yes yes yes yes yes

3139
02:07:45,680 --> 02:07:44,160
they do talk about we'll talk about what

3140
02:07:48,290 --> 02:07:45,690
what Lonnie is on what he said I think

3141
02:07:49,970 --> 02:07:48,300
the daughter is is not at all reticent

3142
02:07:51,380 --> 02:07:49,980
to talk about it and I know a number of

3143
02:07:54,110 --> 02:07:51,390
people who have talked to her about what

3144
02:07:56,210 --> 02:07:54,120
Lonnie saw saw what he said James Fox

3145
02:07:57,680 --> 02:07:56,220
when he went down poking around about

3146
02:08:02,420 --> 02:07:57,690
the case he said they were very very

3147
02:08:04,550 --> 02:08:02,430
gracious and took him in sin to view the

3148
02:08:06,920 --> 02:08:04,560
files that Lonnie had saved over the

3149
02:08:10,280 --> 02:08:06,930
year all the clippings and and stuff and

3150
02:08:12,320 --> 02:08:10,290
I was allegedly a an envelope with

3151
02:08:16,400 --> 02:08:12,330
photographs that supposedly someone had

3152
02:08:20,150 --> 02:08:16,410
taken I'm not sure of what but um

3153
02:08:21,860 --> 02:08:20,160
evidently those were all gone but James

3154
02:08:25,400 --> 02:08:21,870
said that the family was very very nice

3155
02:08:27,620 --> 02:08:25,410
to him and by then the more had died but

3156
02:08:29,900 --> 02:08:27,630
yes and that when I talked to James Fox

3157
02:08:32,270 --> 02:08:29,910
he told me the same thing you know so so

3158
02:08:33,710 --> 02:08:32,280
I very gracious about that and it told

3159
02:08:35,480 --> 02:08:33,720
me about the pictures disappearing too

3160
02:08:37,250 --> 02:08:35,490
there is a possibility of another

3161
02:08:41,150 --> 02:08:37,260
picture but it was taken some six months

3162
02:08:43,100 --> 02:08:41,160
later of an object in the sky of objects

3163
02:08:45,050 --> 02:08:43,110
similar towards the Morehead scene but I

3164
02:08:46,370 --> 02:08:45,060
haven't seen the negative I've just

3165
02:08:48,950 --> 02:08:46,380
talked to people who've seen the picture

3166
02:08:50,630 --> 02:08:48,960
and and they're attempting to get to the

3167
02:08:54,320 --> 02:08:50,640
original negative so that they can do a

3168
02:08:55,550 --> 02:08:54,330
proper photo analysis I say that that

3169
02:08:57,110 --> 02:08:55,560
way only because I'm thinking of a billy

3170
02:08:59,840 --> 02:08:57,120
meier stuff and I remember a letter

3171
02:09:00,980 --> 02:08:59,850
somebody's written it said well you know

3172
02:09:03,500 --> 02:09:00,990
I'm looking at this second generation

3173
02:09:04,520 --> 02:09:03,510
print I find no evidence of a hoax and

3174
02:09:06,800 --> 02:09:04,530
I'm thinking maybe you should take a

3175
02:09:08,360 --> 02:09:06,810
look at the negatives you know second

3176
02:09:09,800 --> 02:09:08,370
generation print isn't gonna do you any

3177
02:09:11,090 --> 02:09:09,810
good you'd need to see the original

3178
02:09:12,740 --> 02:09:11,100
negative and the evidence of a hoax

3179
02:09:14,210 --> 02:09:12,750
might appear there and I think the guy

3180
02:09:15,800 --> 02:09:14,220
understood that because he made it clear

3181
02:09:19,880 --> 02:09:15,810
on the letter you know this is a second

3182
02:09:22,400 --> 02:09:19,890
generation a second generation print

3183
02:09:23,990 --> 02:09:22,410
that I'm looking at so you know you need

3184
02:09:26,420 --> 02:09:24,000
to you need to see the original negative

3185
02:09:28,280 --> 02:09:26,430
and I understand they're looking for the

3186
02:09:31,130 --> 02:09:28,290
original negative so there you go

3187
02:09:33,170 --> 02:09:31,140
you know just looking at distance from

3188
02:09:37,240 --> 02:09:33,180
this we have all these we have all these

3189
02:09:40,460 --> 02:09:37,250
wonderful sightings from the 40s 50s 60s

3190
02:09:42,920 --> 02:09:40,470
so we have this case here and it's

3191
02:09:47,420 --> 02:09:42,930
typical of what we had in the early days

3192
02:09:50,030 --> 02:09:47,430
in the 40s 50s 60s 70s going to the 80s

3193
02:09:53,030 --> 02:09:50,040
we had all these amazing UFO cases that

3194
02:09:55,940 --> 02:09:53,040
obviously we have not explained such as

3195
02:10:00,020 --> 02:09:55,950
Socorro New Mexico they run the gamut in

3196
02:10:03,260 --> 02:10:00,030
terms of richness of detail simultaneous

3197
02:10:05,510 --> 02:10:03,270
radar visual sightings occasionally a

3198
02:10:08,630 --> 02:10:05,520
photograph or to some extraordinary

3199
02:10:11,060 --> 02:10:08,640
sightings that form lets me know of the

3200
02:10:13,220 --> 02:10:11,070
core of the UFO mystery that has been

3201
02:10:15,620 --> 02:10:13,230
examined and re-examined over the years

3202
02:10:17,090 --> 02:10:15,630
but there's a bigger question here I'll

3203
02:10:19,310 --> 02:10:17,100
ask that question in our next segment

3204
02:10:28,270 --> 02:10:19,320
with Kevin Randle Jean and Chris you're

3205
02:10:38,880 --> 02:10:32,190
you are listening to GCN

3206
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visit gpn live.com today this just in

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3246
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3253
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3285
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3290
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3292
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3304
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3305
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3306
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3307
02:14:34,850 --> 02:14:32,920
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3308
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3309
02:14:48,600 --> 02:14:46,390
129 79 today this is Marie G Jones the

3310
02:14:52,410 --> 02:14:48,610
author of this book is from the future

3311
02:14:58,130 --> 02:14:52,420
and you are listening to the podcast the

3312
02:14:58,140 --> 02:15:02,960
[Music]

3313
02:15:09,600 --> 02:15:06,570
so the question the fly in the ointment

3314
02:15:12,750 --> 02:15:09,610
or whatever or is there one does it seem

3315
02:15:14,910 --> 02:15:12,760
to you as it seems a lot of us that the

3316
02:15:18,030 --> 02:15:14,920
kind of sightings the detail the

3317
02:15:20,100 --> 02:15:18,040
richness of testimony that we had in the

3318
02:15:22,610 --> 02:15:20,110
early days we don't see much of that

3319
02:15:24,840 --> 02:15:22,620
anymore do we

3320
02:15:27,030 --> 02:15:24,850
Karl flock and I actually talked about

3321
02:15:29,370 --> 02:15:27,040
this a number of times and our

3322
02:15:30,540 --> 02:15:29,380
conclusion was the aliens all gathered

3323
02:15:33,090 --> 02:15:30,550
had gathered all the information they

3324
02:15:34,470 --> 02:15:33,100
wanted they've gone home to study it now

3325
02:15:37,140 --> 02:15:34,480
kind of like if we did a field

3326
02:15:39,510 --> 02:15:37,150
expedition a scientific field expedition

3327
02:15:41,640 --> 02:15:39,520
somewhere to find dinosaur bones in

3328
02:15:43,470 --> 02:15:41,650
something we came we got our dinosaur

3329
02:15:45,420 --> 02:15:43,480
bones we went home to study study what

3330
02:15:49,560 --> 02:15:45,430
we found you know Carla I kind of joke

3331
02:15:51,990 --> 02:15:49,570
about that frequently 73 we talked about

3332
02:15:54,810 --> 02:15:52,000
we talked about that we don't get the

3333
02:15:58,140 --> 02:15:54,820
same kind of robust cases that we get

3334
02:16:02,040 --> 02:15:58,150
that we got back then there are

3335
02:16:04,260 --> 02:16:02,050
exceptions I think there's the the

3336
02:16:07,320 --> 02:16:04,270
Nimitz case that took place a number of

3337
02:16:09,750 --> 02:16:07,330
years ago that Robert Powell was talking

3338
02:16:11,220 --> 02:16:09,760
about and and during during the

3339
02:16:13,080 --> 02:16:11,230
interview I did with him on the creation

3340
02:16:16,290 --> 02:16:13,090
of the scientific collect coalition of

3341
02:16:17,850 --> 02:16:16,300
ufology and it's a well known case it's

3342
02:16:20,400 --> 02:16:17,860
on the on the internet I mean you type

3343
02:16:22,320 --> 02:16:20,410
in USS Nimitz UFO and you can go take a

3344
02:16:26,190 --> 02:16:22,330
look at that I did something on my blog

3345
02:16:28,500 --> 02:16:26,200
about it with a link to to a navy report

3346
02:16:30,300 --> 02:16:28,510
on it so we get some of that stuff and

3347
02:16:32,190 --> 02:16:30,310
this was a case where the fighters from

3348
02:16:34,589 --> 02:16:32,200
from the Nimitz fighter planes from the

3349
02:16:36,930 --> 02:16:34,599
Nimitz intercepted an object that was

3350
02:16:40,049 --> 02:16:36,940
shaped like a tic-tac which is similar

3351
02:16:41,520 --> 02:16:40,059
to what Lonnie Zamora saw by the way it

3352
02:16:43,410 --> 02:16:41,530
was seen on radar by a number of

3353
02:16:45,240 --> 02:16:43,420
different ships and that sort of thing

3354
02:16:47,250 --> 02:16:45,250
so and I think there's a gun camera film

3355
02:16:48,930 --> 02:16:47,260
above it as well so there's a very

3356
02:16:50,370 --> 02:16:48,940
robust case that we just don't have a

3357
02:16:52,530 --> 02:16:50,380
lot of details because a lot of it's

3358
02:16:54,360 --> 02:16:52,540
still classified and the people who were

3359
02:16:57,480 --> 02:16:54,370
involved in it are very reticent to talk

3360
02:17:01,020 --> 02:16:57,490
about it and that might might fit in to

3361
02:17:04,500 --> 02:17:01,030
a point like we get with with Zamora or

3362
02:17:07,200 --> 02:17:04,510
with Roswell or Levelland or the the

3363
02:17:10,080 --> 02:17:07,210
wave of 1973 that I don't know which one

3364
02:17:12,839 --> 02:17:10,090
of you mentioned that moments ago so we

3365
02:17:15,220 --> 02:17:12,849
do have some of those cases and it may

3366
02:17:17,560 --> 02:17:15,230
be that we're looking back

3367
02:17:20,560 --> 02:17:17,570
50 60 70 years so we it seems like there

3368
02:17:22,150 --> 02:17:20,570
were a lot of them before but now we

3369
02:17:25,720 --> 02:17:22,160
don't really have that sort of thing

3370
02:17:27,970 --> 02:17:25,730
going on so I I don't know that we may

3371
02:17:30,371 --> 02:17:27,980
we may be seeing some of these kind of

3372
02:17:33,880 --> 02:17:30,381
exciting cases you know plus some very

3373
02:17:36,490 --> 02:17:33,890
few landings yeah but but it may be

3374
02:17:39,430 --> 02:17:36,500
again a factor people not reporting them

3375
02:17:41,350 --> 02:17:39,440
I think waves develop because there's a

3376
02:17:43,060 --> 02:17:41,360
spectacular case it comes out in the

3377
02:17:45,371 --> 02:17:43,070
newspaper and then everybody seems to

3378
02:17:47,680 --> 02:17:45,381
have a reporting point oh I've seen a

3379
02:17:49,060 --> 02:17:47,690
flying saucer who do I call it used to

3380
02:17:50,320 --> 02:17:49,070
be that if you called the Air Force they

3381
02:17:52,541 --> 02:17:50,330
tell you to call the sheriff

3382
02:17:55,180 --> 02:17:52,551
after the colors a blue book then if you

3383
02:17:57,100 --> 02:17:55,190
felt agitated about it or feel fearful

3384
02:17:59,650 --> 02:17:57,110
by the sighting call your local air

3385
02:18:02,650 --> 02:17:59,660
force base or call the local sheriff

3386
02:18:04,780 --> 02:18:02,660
that sort of thing and I know

3387
02:18:06,940 --> 02:18:04,790
Davenport Peter Davenport has his

3388
02:18:09,070 --> 02:18:06,950
Reporting Center that gathers a lot of

3389
02:18:10,780 --> 02:18:09,080
data stuff goes into MUFON they talk

3390
02:18:13,990 --> 02:18:10,790
about getting thousands of reports a

3391
02:18:15,970 --> 02:18:14,000
year so there that's going on but but I

3392
02:18:18,640 --> 02:18:15,980
think it's the same kind of things we

3393
02:18:19,780 --> 02:18:18,650
used to get you look back at the project

3394
02:18:22,871 --> 02:18:19,790
Bluebook files and they're filled with

3395
02:18:24,280 --> 02:18:22,881
all kinds of mundane things being seen

3396
02:18:26,440 --> 02:18:24,290
by people who are unaware of what's

3397
02:18:29,650 --> 02:18:26,450
going on in the sky and reporting those

3398
02:18:31,420 --> 02:18:29,660
sorts of things and you know we now see

3399
02:18:33,550 --> 02:18:31,430
all the really good cases because we

3400
02:18:35,201 --> 02:18:33,560
filtered out all the nonsense and and in

3401
02:18:37,090 --> 02:18:35,211
today's world we we get a lot of the

3402
02:18:39,280 --> 02:18:37,100
nonsense we haven't had the opportunity

3403
02:18:42,100 --> 02:18:39,290
of I guess hindsight to filter it all

3404
02:18:45,451 --> 02:18:42,110
out yeah yeah just go on the internet

3405
02:18:47,951 --> 02:18:45,461
and type in UFO and hit images on Google

3406
02:18:49,451 --> 02:18:47,961
yeah the thing is that really is

3407
02:18:51,041 --> 02:18:49,461
annoying to me and I think many other

3408
02:18:52,480 --> 02:18:51,051
researchers is a lot of the stuff that

3409
02:18:55,150 --> 02:18:52,490
pops up on those things we've already

3410
02:18:56,650 --> 02:18:55,160
debunked and I say we've debunked it

3411
02:18:58,090 --> 02:18:56,660
meaning the UFO research is you only

3412
02:18:59,770 --> 02:18:58,100
have to look at the skeptics debunking

3413
02:19:01,360 --> 02:18:59,780
it it's we've debunked that we found the

3414
02:19:04,331 --> 02:19:01,370
flaws in this and we said this case is a

3415
02:19:06,610 --> 02:19:04,341
bogus because of this this and this and

3416
02:19:09,970 --> 02:19:06,620
I don't know how many of the famous

3417
02:19:12,610 --> 02:19:09,980
photo cases have been shown to be hoaxes

3418
02:19:14,680 --> 02:19:12,620
or admitted hoaxes by the by the people

3419
02:19:16,300 --> 02:19:14,690
who made the photographs originally in

3420
02:19:19,030 --> 02:19:16,310
about 99 percent of those were teenage

3421
02:19:20,411 --> 02:19:19,040
boys so you know and the exception of

3422
02:19:22,360 --> 02:19:20,421
that would be the Lubbock lights the

3423
02:19:23,800 --> 02:19:22,370
photograph taken by Carl Hart he was 19

3424
02:19:24,970 --> 02:19:23,810
when he took the pictures I don't think

3425
02:19:26,660 --> 02:19:24,980
anybody really knows what he

3426
02:19:28,250 --> 02:19:26,670
photographed back then

3427
02:19:29,660 --> 02:19:28,260
so you've got to look at all of that I

3428
02:19:31,129 --> 02:19:29,670
think you know a combination those two

3429
02:19:33,530 --> 02:19:31,139
things maybe there's not that many

3430
02:19:35,990 --> 02:19:33,540
robust sightings as they went home and

3431
02:19:38,120 --> 02:19:36,000
maybe it's because we look at a lot of

3432
02:19:41,000 --> 02:19:38,130
the the history through hindsight and we

3433
02:19:43,580 --> 02:19:41,010
can see a lot of robust cases there and

3434
02:19:46,160 --> 02:19:43,590
we're still filtering out the the

3435
02:19:48,800 --> 02:19:46,170
nonsense for the robust cases in the

3436
02:19:51,800 --> 02:19:48,810
21st century right but whence the Karo

3437
02:19:54,170 --> 02:19:51,810
occurred back in 1964 and a few of us

3438
02:19:57,620 --> 02:19:54,180
were around at that time it was a big

3439
02:19:59,809 --> 02:19:57,630
deal then yes remember Walter Cronkite

3440
02:20:01,729 --> 02:19:59,819
talking about it on the CBS Evening News

3441
02:20:03,110 --> 02:20:01,739
and I remember my neighbors telling me

3442
02:20:05,030 --> 02:20:03,120
it you see this the report on the

3443
02:20:06,979 --> 02:20:05,040
Socorro case yes it was a big deal and

3444
02:20:09,050 --> 02:20:06,989
we still get those you know you've got

3445
02:20:10,760 --> 02:20:09,060
the Stevensville landings which were a

3446
02:20:13,760 --> 02:20:10,770
big deal you've got the Chicago O'Hare

3447
02:20:15,110 --> 02:20:13,770
sightings which were a big deal and so

3448
02:20:17,689 --> 02:20:15,120
you still get some of the big deal

3449
02:20:20,090 --> 02:20:17,699
sightings but you know Socorro was a

3450
02:20:21,979 --> 02:20:20,100
landing with alien creatures and you

3451
02:20:23,360 --> 02:20:21,989
look at the O'Hare sightings and

3452
02:20:25,040 --> 02:20:23,370
basically you've got a craft over an

3453
02:20:26,929 --> 02:20:25,050
airport leaving a hole in the clouds as

3454
02:20:29,540 --> 02:20:26,939
it takes off and the Stephenville

3455
02:20:32,870 --> 02:20:29,550
sightings you've got problems with the

3456
02:20:34,370 --> 02:20:32,880
radar imagery and why some of the Jets

3457
02:20:36,080 --> 02:20:34,380
were in the area they weren't really

3458
02:20:38,240 --> 02:20:36,090
there intercepting the UFO they were

3459
02:20:39,950 --> 02:20:38,250
actually on a training mission and so

3460
02:20:40,340 --> 02:20:39,960
you've got to look at all of that as

3461
02:20:42,260 --> 02:20:40,350
well

3462
02:20:44,179 --> 02:20:42,270
you've got to look at all of that sort

3463
02:20:46,519 --> 02:20:44,189
of thing but yes the karo was a big deal

3464
02:20:48,710 --> 02:20:46,529
when it happened the sightings in

3465
02:20:50,210 --> 02:20:48,720
Michigan in 66 were a big deal when they

3466
02:20:53,030 --> 02:20:50,220
happen the level and sightings were a

3467
02:20:54,649 --> 02:20:53,040
big deal in November of 1957 when they

3468
02:20:56,570 --> 02:20:54,659
happened the Washington Nationals

3469
02:20:58,309 --> 02:20:56,580
Washington Nationals I love these were

3470
02:21:01,010 --> 02:20:58,319
the UFO sightings over Washington

3471
02:21:03,320 --> 02:21:01,020
National Airport Washington DC and it

3472
02:21:04,849 --> 02:21:03,330
resulted in the greatest headline and I

3473
02:21:06,740 --> 02:21:04,859
ever saw in a newspaper it's like right

3474
02:21:10,280 --> 02:21:06,750
out of science fiction movie Cedar

3475
02:21:12,979 --> 02:21:10,290
Rapids Gazette and July of 1952 banner

3476
02:21:16,070 --> 02:21:12,989
headline across the front page saucer

3477
02:21:17,479 --> 02:21:16,080
swarm over Capitol I love that headline

3478
02:21:19,160 --> 02:21:17,489
it's just like you're in a science

3479
02:21:20,960 --> 02:21:19,170
fiction movie so yeah there were big

3480
02:21:22,790 --> 02:21:20,970
deal sightings man we still have those

3481
02:21:24,530 --> 02:21:22,800
but I still think you know part of its

3482
02:21:27,229 --> 02:21:24,540
we're looking about it about it and in

3483
02:21:29,540 --> 02:21:27,239
hindsight and it may be that people are

3484
02:21:32,540 --> 02:21:29,550
more cognizant of what they see in the

3485
02:21:34,490 --> 02:21:32,550
sky so they're not making the reports

3486
02:21:36,019 --> 02:21:34,500
they used to that would confound the

3487
02:21:37,580 --> 02:21:36,029
whole thing and the other thing is

3488
02:21:38,990 --> 02:21:37,590
everybody is walking around now outside

3489
02:21:40,631 --> 02:21:39,000
and looking at their damn cell phone so

3490
02:21:41,950 --> 02:21:40,641
they're not seeing

3491
02:21:46,030 --> 02:21:41,960
now the thing is of course they're

3492
02:21:49,211 --> 02:21:46,040
looking down and I see this of course

3493
02:21:52,631 --> 02:21:49,221
when I was doing some of my driving and

3494
02:21:55,360 --> 02:21:52,641
just today I saw somebody near the

3495
02:21:56,591 --> 02:21:55,370
Boeing plant in Mesa Arizona and he

3496
02:21:57,640 --> 02:21:56,601
wasn't looking down he was looking

3497
02:22:00,671 --> 02:21:57,650
straight ahead

3498
02:22:03,041 --> 02:22:00,681
but like in a fog ignoring the traffic

3499
02:22:05,200 --> 02:22:03,051
around him and I figured he must have

3500
02:22:08,081 --> 02:22:05,210
thought he lived it's really charmed

3501
02:22:11,140 --> 02:22:08,091
life and no car would actually hit him

3502
02:22:14,140 --> 02:22:11,150
they would just navigate around him or

3503
02:22:17,530 --> 02:22:14,150
curse at him or something the worst I

3504
02:22:19,450 --> 02:22:17,540
ever saw driving down Interstate 80 was

3505
02:22:22,150 --> 02:22:19,460
a guy with a DVD player sitting on his

3506
02:22:24,341 --> 02:22:22,160
dashboard watching a movie driving down

3507
02:22:26,020 --> 02:22:24,351
the road at 70 miles 75 miles an hour

3508
02:22:29,560 --> 02:22:26,030
while the movies playing on his

3509
02:22:31,331 --> 02:22:29,570
dashboard Jesus yeah you know nowadays

3510
02:22:32,200 --> 02:22:31,341
it may be possible without endangering

3511
02:22:35,110 --> 02:22:32,210
anyone

3512
02:22:39,820 --> 02:22:35,120
for example latest Cadillacs have a

3513
02:22:43,990 --> 02:22:39,830
special super-duper cruise control where

3514
02:22:45,761 --> 02:22:44,000
if you set it and you can drive a long

3515
02:22:48,211 --> 02:22:45,771
distance in one lane I think they give

3516
02:22:50,200 --> 02:22:48,221
you different interstates you could use

3517
02:22:52,060 --> 02:22:50,210
literally you can take your hands off

3518
02:22:54,791 --> 02:22:52,070
the steering wheel and just sit there

3519
02:22:57,131 --> 02:22:54,801
and drive and until some condition

3520
02:22:58,871 --> 02:22:57,141
changes you won't have a problem and

3521
02:23:03,640 --> 02:22:58,881
then you could watch your DVD or

3522
02:23:06,461 --> 02:23:03,650
whatever you want to watch well this guy

3523
02:23:10,060 --> 02:23:06,471
wasn't driving a Cadillac and B it was

3524
02:23:12,970 --> 02:23:10,070
probably ten years ago he didn't have a

3525
02:23:14,890 --> 02:23:12,980
car that would drive for him and I'm

3526
02:23:17,320 --> 02:23:14,900
with you I'm thinking that that I would

3527
02:23:19,570 --> 02:23:17,330
want to keep my eyes on the road just in

3528
02:23:21,190 --> 02:23:19,580
case a deer leaked into my lane or

3529
02:23:23,680 --> 02:23:21,200
something like that something unexpected

3530
02:23:26,890 --> 02:23:23,690
appeared in my lane you know I've had

3531
02:23:29,650 --> 02:23:26,900
exactly one car with a lane change

3532
02:23:31,180 --> 02:23:29,660
feature and they started in luxury cars

3533
02:23:34,421 --> 02:23:31,190
and they filtered down to affordable

3534
02:23:36,671 --> 02:23:34,431
cars now so compacts with a few extra

3535
02:23:39,131 --> 02:23:36,681
options will have it and all I had was

3536
02:23:42,551 --> 02:23:39,141
this clicking or sound it would make if

3537
02:23:44,980 --> 02:23:42,561
I drifted slightly over the lane divider

3538
02:23:48,160 --> 02:23:44,990
and I thought you know what I know how

3539
02:23:49,930 --> 02:23:48,170
to drive and I'll watch what I'm doing I

3540
02:23:51,791 --> 02:23:49,940
can't stand this and I turned off the

3541
02:23:53,019 --> 02:23:51,801
feature because some of these things can

3542
02:23:54,489 --> 02:23:53,029
be downright in no

3543
02:23:57,219 --> 02:23:54,499
but eventually there will be

3544
02:24:00,399 --> 02:23:57,229
self-driving that is not annoying in

3545
02:24:02,979 --> 02:24:00,409
fact near here in Tempe Arizona they're

3546
02:24:06,880 --> 02:24:02,989
undergoing tests now with uber and they

3547
02:24:08,710 --> 02:24:06,890
have this SUV with this silly gadget on

3548
02:24:11,500 --> 02:24:08,720
top that does self-driving but there's

3549
02:24:14,050 --> 02:24:11,510
still somebody an engineer watching the

3550
02:24:17,469 --> 02:24:14,060
system we've got Kevin Randle not about

3551
02:24:19,330 --> 02:24:17,479
self-driving but about UFOs and all

3552
02:24:30,639 --> 02:24:19,340
sorts of things with Gina and Chris

3553
02:24:34,929 --> 02:24:30,649
you're in Liberec ass thank you for

3554
02:24:38,729 --> 02:24:34,939
listening to GCN be sure to visit GCN

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live.com today as you know neighbors

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web-hosting can be pretty cheap but not

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again that's tech naica comm slash host

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first game attack of the rockets and it

3567
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was a critically acclaimed success and

3568
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now there's the coming of the protectors

3569
02:25:17,889 --> 02:25:15,619
a former military intelligence man is

3570
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contacted by a space woman in a dream a

3571
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dream that turns out to be a nightmare

3572
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because evil forces on our distant

3573
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planet are planning to conquer the earth

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this is gripping science fiction of the

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classic kind attack of the rock OIG's

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and the coming of the protectors find

3577
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out more at rockets calm that's rock oh

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hello mr. Anderson the NSA has noticed

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how much time you spend on conservative

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news sites we have no choice but to

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consider you a domestic terrorist tired

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of your internet activity being

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monitored by Big Brother yet virtual

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there loss of energy blood sugar spikes

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heartbeat are just a few of these that

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3641
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3649
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bacon com this is Leslie Kane and I'm

3657
02:28:47,690 --> 02:28:45,421
with the Coalition for freedom of

3658
02:28:52,911 --> 02:28:47,700
information and you are listening to the

3659
02:28:54,951 --> 02:28:52,921
podcast the problem I see with the UFO

3660
02:28:59,241 --> 02:28:54,961
field that we all have to possibly agree

3661
02:29:02,270 --> 02:28:59,251
on is that it's entertainment to some

3662
02:29:06,261 --> 02:29:02,280
people and what prospect is there except

3663
02:29:08,930 --> 02:29:06,271
for a few of us to really really dig

3664
02:29:10,640 --> 02:29:08,940
down deep and find an answer what you've

3665
02:29:13,341 --> 02:29:10,650
hit the nail on the head it's

3666
02:29:15,291 --> 02:29:13,351
entertainment and hey or one is a good

3667
02:29:17,110 --> 02:29:15,301
example of entertainment well a bad

3668
02:29:20,900 --> 02:29:17,120
example depending on your point of view

3669
02:29:21,770 --> 02:29:20,910
yes precisely when I was doing the book

3670
02:29:23,930 --> 02:29:21,780
on Socorro

3671
02:29:25,310 --> 02:29:23,940
you know you think well you've got to

3672
02:29:27,560 --> 02:29:25,320
write it in such a way that it's

3673
02:29:31,060 --> 02:29:27,570
interesting to the reader and and here

3674
02:29:33,970 --> 02:29:31,070
she wants to go through it careful life

3675
02:29:36,890 --> 02:29:33,980
but by the same token you want to be

3676
02:29:39,350 --> 02:29:36,900
careful of what you say you want to to

3677
02:29:42,411 --> 02:29:39,360
keep the facts straight and and make a

3678
02:29:45,081 --> 02:29:42,421
good case for this landing in Socorro

3679
02:29:46,730 --> 02:29:45,091
New Mexico you're not really wanting to

3680
02:29:49,730 --> 02:29:46,740
do entertainment you're doing nonfiction

3681
02:29:51,411 --> 02:29:49,740
which can be entertaining but you have

3682
02:29:52,761 --> 02:29:51,421
to be have to walk that fine line you

3683
02:29:55,341 --> 02:29:52,771
know you don't reject well Lonnie Zamora

3684
02:29:56,511 --> 02:29:55,351
saying the two creatures was so

3685
02:29:59,010 --> 02:29:56,521
frightened by tea whipped out his

3686
02:30:00,689 --> 02:29:59,020
service revolver and took six shots Adam

3687
02:30:02,910 --> 02:30:00,699
by the way I just made that up it is not

3688
02:30:04,500 --> 02:30:02,920
true for those of you who will listen to

3689
02:30:05,880 --> 02:30:04,510
part of this and say Oh Kevin Randall

3690
02:30:07,649 --> 02:30:05,890
said lund is more shot at them

3691
02:30:10,740 --> 02:30:07,659
I think people interject some things

3692
02:30:12,120 --> 02:30:10,750
into UFO sightings and I think of the

3693
02:30:14,429 --> 02:30:12,130
researchers and the writers to make them

3694
02:30:16,260 --> 02:30:14,439
more exciting more entertaining and we

3695
02:30:18,960 --> 02:30:16,270
have to be careful that that doesn't

3696
02:30:21,660 --> 02:30:18,970
happen so where does Sequoia rank in

3697
02:30:23,550 --> 02:30:21,670
your list of most impressive cases I

3698
02:30:26,010 --> 02:30:23,560
think it's one of the top cases I think

3699
02:30:27,240 --> 02:30:26,020
it's very important it was important

3700
02:30:29,429 --> 02:30:27,250
when I thought it was single witness

3701
02:30:31,200 --> 02:30:29,439
because of the physical evidence with it

3702
02:30:32,969 --> 02:30:31,210
but determining there were additional

3703
02:30:33,389 --> 02:30:32,979
witnesses even though we don't know who

3704
02:30:35,700 --> 02:30:33,399
they are

3705
02:30:37,529 --> 02:30:35,710
I think makes it much more important

3706
02:30:39,210 --> 02:30:37,539
looking at the documentation that was

3707
02:30:40,920 --> 02:30:39,220
created at the time by the various

3708
02:30:43,109 --> 02:30:40,930
people makes it very important so you've

3709
02:30:45,479 --> 02:30:43,119
got multiple chains of evidence for this

3710
02:30:47,399 --> 02:30:45,489
for this thing plus you've got a landed

3711
02:30:49,050 --> 02:30:47,409
craft and you've got the alien creatures

3712
02:30:50,550 --> 02:30:49,060
being seen outside the craft I think

3713
02:30:52,830 --> 02:30:50,560
it's very important for all of those

3714
02:30:56,670 --> 02:30:52,840
reasons it's very very important case

3715
02:30:59,639 --> 02:30:56,680
the only problem is we do not have that

3716
02:31:01,590 --> 02:30:59,649
one little bit of evidence that would

3717
02:31:03,870 --> 02:31:01,600
propel us directly to the

3718
02:31:06,420 --> 02:31:03,880
extra-terrestrial the observations

3719
02:31:08,550 --> 02:31:06,430
everything's seem to suggest that but we

3720
02:31:10,590 --> 02:31:08,560
don't have anything that we can wave in

3721
02:31:12,420 --> 02:31:10,600
front of the site as they see this is

3722
02:31:15,149 --> 02:31:12,430
alien this is actually crest really just

3723
02:31:17,880 --> 02:31:15,159
really don't have that know well it's

3724
02:31:19,740 --> 02:31:17,890
really sad that as time marches on

3725
02:31:21,929 --> 02:31:19,750
younger people that are getting

3726
02:31:24,090 --> 02:31:21,939
interested in this subject are coming

3727
02:31:27,090 --> 02:31:24,100
into the field and they're being tainted

3728
02:31:30,019 --> 02:31:27,100
with all the internet hoaxes and the

3729
02:31:31,830 --> 02:31:30,029
YouTube hoaxes and in some legitimate

3730
02:31:33,359 --> 02:31:31,840
misidentified natural phenomena and

3731
02:31:35,069 --> 02:31:33,369
things of that sort

3732
02:31:38,429 --> 02:31:35,079
they don't really they're not taking the

3733
02:31:42,630 --> 02:31:38,439
time to become up to speed and and to

3734
02:31:45,510 --> 02:31:42,640
really explore the rich history of UFO

3735
02:31:46,859 --> 02:31:45,520
sightings and be exposed to type of

3736
02:31:48,569 --> 02:31:46,869
researchers like yourself who really

3737
02:31:51,019 --> 02:31:48,579
take the time to dig and present the

3738
02:31:54,719 --> 02:31:51,029
information there an objective

3739
02:31:57,420 --> 02:31:54,729
non-judgmental fashion at least in a

3740
02:31:59,490 --> 02:31:57,430
perfect world and it's it's really sad I

3741
02:32:01,469 --> 02:31:59,500
think that it's starting to really

3742
02:32:04,139 --> 02:32:01,479
become part of our cultural mythos

3743
02:32:06,689 --> 02:32:04,149
really as opposed to part of our actual

3744
02:32:09,899 --> 02:32:06,699
history as demonstrated by good research

3745
02:32:10,570 --> 02:32:09,909
and investigation I mean what can we do

3746
02:32:15,551 --> 02:32:10,580
to

3747
02:32:17,170 --> 02:32:15,561
speed properly the only thing we can do

3748
02:32:19,720 --> 02:32:17,180
is try to teach them how to do proper

3749
02:32:20,980 --> 02:32:19,730
research you know you you look at

3750
02:32:22,210 --> 02:32:20,990
something internet you find it very

3751
02:32:24,040 --> 02:32:22,220
exciting and the best example I can

3752
02:32:26,140 --> 02:32:24,050
think of this is back when I was doing a

3753
02:32:28,360 --> 02:32:26,150
lot of other research I would go to

3754
02:32:29,770 --> 02:32:28,370
newspaper archives and look up stuff and

3755
02:32:32,860 --> 02:32:29,780
one of the things I would look up is the

3756
02:32:34,660 --> 02:32:32,870
1897 airship and I went to a newspaper

3757
02:32:37,330 --> 02:32:34,670
and I found this wonderful story of the

3758
02:32:39,610 --> 02:32:37,340
the airship landing in Cedar Rapids Iowa

3759
02:32:41,290 --> 02:32:39,620
the guys getting on board and they were

3760
02:32:44,380 --> 02:32:41,300
they were signing out the David's and

3761
02:32:47,051 --> 02:32:44,390
all of this about how good it was and

3762
02:32:49,301 --> 02:32:47,061
the next day I found another story about

3763
02:32:51,460 --> 02:32:49,311
the thing having landed in Waterloo Iowa

3764
02:32:53,320 --> 02:32:51,470
and that's great I mean here there's an

3765
02:32:55,330 --> 02:32:53,330
illustration and there's people involved

3766
02:32:56,860 --> 02:32:55,340
and there's interviews and it turns out

3767
02:33:00,730 --> 02:32:56,870
there's actual photographs of the thing

3768
02:33:02,051 --> 02:33:00,740
it's in a book the government UFO FILES

3769
02:33:04,301 --> 02:33:02,061
there's actual photograph from this

3770
02:33:05,830 --> 02:33:04,311
thing that landed in Waterloo Iowa and I

3771
02:33:07,330 --> 02:33:05,840
go home and I'm very happy nice and I

3772
02:33:09,280 --> 02:33:07,340
said you know I should have looked at

3773
02:33:11,370 --> 02:33:09,290
the next day and then went back to the

3774
02:33:13,900 --> 02:33:11,380
went back to the morgue the the library

3775
02:33:16,090 --> 02:33:13,910
the microfilm and I was looking at the

3776
02:33:18,370 --> 02:33:16,100
next day and it turns out it's an

3777
02:33:20,200 --> 02:33:18,380
admitted hoax I had gone to the point

3778
02:33:22,360 --> 02:33:20,210
where wow this is a great sighting and

3779
02:33:23,860 --> 02:33:22,370
it's landed and all of this stuff and if

3780
02:33:25,210 --> 02:33:23,870
I'd stopped there I wouldn't know that

3781
02:33:26,980 --> 02:33:25,220
it was a hoax but I went back the next

3782
02:33:28,990 --> 02:33:26,990
day to see what the follow-up was and

3783
02:33:30,430 --> 02:33:29,000
they identified the they identified the

3784
02:33:31,900 --> 02:33:30,440
people who are involved with it and all

3785
02:33:33,040 --> 02:33:31,910
of that stuff and it turned out to be a

3786
02:33:34,720 --> 02:33:33,050
hoax and I think that's the thing you

3787
02:33:36,610 --> 02:33:34,730
have to do you have to take the next

3788
02:33:38,650 --> 02:33:36,620
step you have to chase the footnotes you

3789
02:33:40,570 --> 02:33:38,660
have to go to the original sources the

3790
02:33:42,551 --> 02:33:40,580
original sources not the secondary and

3791
02:33:44,410 --> 02:33:42,561
the tertiary sources but the original

3792
02:33:47,080 --> 02:33:44,420
sources to get an idea of what really

3793
02:33:49,480 --> 02:33:47,090
happened there and you bring up a really

3794
02:33:50,980 --> 02:33:49,490
good point you know for instance the

3795
02:33:53,860 --> 02:33:50,990
current craze of the secret space

3796
02:33:55,780 --> 02:33:53,870
program and people claiming to be chrono

3797
02:33:57,640 --> 02:33:55,790
knots and traveling through time and

3798
02:34:00,150 --> 02:33:57,650
being regressed back to the time when

3799
02:34:02,680 --> 02:34:00,160
they originally leave and you know these

3800
02:34:04,840 --> 02:34:02,690
kind of bad sounding science fiction as

3801
02:34:07,301 --> 02:34:04,850
far as I'm concerned when you read

3802
02:34:12,700 --> 02:34:07,311
articles about them or books by them

3803
02:34:16,030 --> 02:34:12,710
they're all quoting each other it's like

3804
02:34:18,551 --> 02:34:16,040
a circular firing squad in terms of you

3805
02:34:21,520 --> 02:34:18,561
know trying to legitimize you know their

3806
02:34:23,740 --> 02:34:21,530
claims by using the highly dubious

3807
02:34:24,341 --> 02:34:23,750
claims of others who are doing the same

3808
02:34:26,951 --> 02:34:24,351
thing with

3809
02:34:29,890 --> 02:34:26,961
claims it's a vicious circle and unless

3810
02:34:31,541 --> 02:34:29,900
you're paying attention it can see it

3811
02:34:33,671 --> 02:34:31,551
can seem pretty pretty yeah pretty

3812
02:34:35,680 --> 02:34:33,681
impressive on the surface well I I do

3813
02:34:37,690 --> 02:34:35,690
have to interject here that I think it

3814
02:34:39,970 --> 02:34:37,700
was on the exone radio show with Rob

3815
02:34:41,381 --> 02:34:39,980
McConnell he had on a woman who claimed

3816
02:34:44,350 --> 02:34:41,391
that all of us who'd served in Iraq

3817
02:34:48,730 --> 02:34:44,360
actually had been fighting the aliens on

3818
02:34:50,531 --> 02:34:48,740
Mars yeah and so I did I did a blog

3819
02:34:52,360 --> 02:34:50,541
posting oh yeah that's absolutely true

3820
02:34:54,190 --> 02:34:52,370
yeah they they had it set up so that

3821
02:34:55,900 --> 02:34:54,200
there was a Walmart where we could order

3822
02:34:58,091 --> 02:34:55,910
stuff and we would get there in a week

3823
02:35:01,541 --> 02:34:58,101
you know they did some big Walmart and

3824
02:35:04,140 --> 02:35:01,551
and the the time frame from from calling

3825
02:35:06,310 --> 02:35:04,150
home only the time delay that was

3826
02:35:08,470 --> 02:35:06,320
instantaneous they'd removed that and

3827
02:35:10,571 --> 02:35:08,480
once we were finished our tour on Mars

3828
02:35:12,341 --> 02:35:10,581
we went through a big warehouse where we

3829
02:35:14,171 --> 02:35:12,351
could pick up souvenirs to take home to

3830
02:35:17,801 --> 02:35:14,181
prove that we'd really been on in Iraq

3831
02:35:20,921 --> 02:35:17,811
as opposed to Mars in force the Sun Sun

3832
02:35:23,140 --> 02:35:20,931
bed sessions to to get your Iraq tan

3833
02:35:26,081 --> 02:35:23,150
while you were there you met up with

3834
02:35:27,671 --> 02:35:26,091
that race of Martians shapeshifters we

3835
02:35:29,621 --> 02:35:27,681
did and then of course when we came home

3836
02:35:31,390 --> 02:35:29,631
we were hypnotically regressed or they

3837
02:35:33,730 --> 02:35:31,400
use chemicals to convince us we had been

3838
02:35:36,131 --> 02:35:33,740
in Iraq as opposed to on Mars and by the

3839
02:35:39,100 --> 02:35:36,141
way by the way we're not talking to

3840
02:35:41,951 --> 02:35:39,110
Kevin D Randle here okay we're talking

3841
02:35:44,890 --> 02:35:41,961
to the Martian Manhunter who has morphed

3842
02:35:51,220 --> 02:35:44,900
himself into Kevin he will change back

3843
02:35:52,991 --> 02:35:51,230
to his green form very shortly well

3844
02:35:55,480 --> 02:35:53,001
that's the time they don't do it because

3845
02:35:57,100 --> 02:35:55,490
they don't want you to suspect them you

3846
02:35:58,541 --> 02:35:57,110
see and we have to be careful of the

3847
02:36:01,001 --> 02:35:58,551
costumes we wear so we don't offend

3848
02:36:02,890 --> 02:36:01,011
anybody so that's why I can use the

3849
02:36:05,110 --> 02:36:02,900
green Martian costume because it only

3850
02:36:06,881 --> 02:36:05,120
offends the Martians and they're not in

3851
02:36:08,650 --> 02:36:06,891
communication with us directly anyway so

3852
02:36:12,461 --> 02:36:08,660
who cares they walk among us because

3853
02:36:14,591 --> 02:36:12,471
they are shapeshifters and their DNA

3854
02:36:16,661 --> 02:36:14,601
when they change their shape is

3855
02:36:18,491 --> 02:36:16,671
identical to a human being yeah but

3856
02:36:20,711 --> 02:36:18,501
their little finger doesn't Bend you

3857
02:36:24,940 --> 02:36:20,721
know there is that you know sometimes

3858
02:36:26,860 --> 02:36:24,950
things about the way the aliens can't do

3859
02:36:28,511 --> 02:36:26,870
this a hundred percent shape-shifting

3860
02:36:30,671 --> 02:36:28,521
doesn't work like it does in the movies

3861
02:36:32,171 --> 02:36:30,681
if you remember the old invaders Show

3862
02:36:33,610 --> 02:36:32,181
with David Vinson that was the way they

3863
02:36:34,720 --> 02:36:33,620
could tell the invaders they did their

3864
02:36:36,820 --> 02:36:34,730
little finger with

3865
02:36:40,540 --> 02:36:36,830
right I didn't know if anybody picked up

3866
02:36:42,671 --> 02:36:40,550
on that reference I did it was rather

3867
02:36:45,190 --> 02:36:42,681
obscure for some of our younger

3868
02:36:47,140 --> 02:36:45,200
listeners but it's I definitely remember

3869
02:36:48,370 --> 02:36:47,150
that was that was the one the only way

3870
02:36:50,620 --> 02:36:48,380
you could identify them

3871
02:36:52,720 --> 02:36:50,630
kevin durand oh where can we find more

3872
02:36:55,960 --> 02:36:52,730
of the information you have for those

3873
02:36:58,450 --> 02:36:55,970
who are not Martian shapeshifters well

3874
02:37:01,060 --> 02:36:58,460
there's always my blog at WWF and

3875
02:37:02,350 --> 02:37:01,070
Randall blog spot.com and that links to

3876
02:37:04,930 --> 02:37:02,360
a lot of other stuff so you can read a

3877
02:37:07,091 --> 02:37:04,940
lot of information the book encounters

3878
02:37:09,520 --> 02:37:07,101
in the desert about the Socorro

3879
02:37:11,440 --> 02:37:09,530
UFO sighting is available online at

3880
02:37:13,660 --> 02:37:11,450
Amazon and the bookstores and all of

3881
02:37:16,030 --> 02:37:13,670
that and if you buy the book hey do me a

3882
02:37:17,680 --> 02:37:16,040
favor write a review because that really

3883
02:37:19,660 --> 02:37:17,690
actually helps us somewhat if you

3884
02:37:21,460 --> 02:37:19,670
enjoyed the book put up a review helped

3885
02:37:23,650 --> 02:37:21,470
me out a little bit now get an extra 25

3886
02:37:25,540 --> 02:37:23,660
cents or something hey that works it for

3887
02:37:27,640 --> 02:37:25,550
everyone you can find us on Twitter look

3888
02:37:29,350 --> 02:37:27,650
for the power cast I don't know if

3889
02:37:31,330 --> 02:37:29,360
Twitter is as popular anymore

3890
02:37:33,100 --> 02:37:31,340
as it used to be I think they admitted

3891
02:37:35,560 --> 02:37:33,110
they were faking the figures somewhat

3892
02:37:38,740 --> 02:37:35,570
but check us out on Twitter there are

3893
02:37:41,470 --> 02:37:38,750
two power cast fan clubs on Facebook and

3894
02:37:43,570 --> 02:37:41,480
after this it may be only one once a

3895
02:37:45,520 --> 02:37:43,580
group once a community we also have a

3896
02:37:46,780 --> 02:37:45,530
special show called after the power cast

3897
02:37:47,320 --> 02:37:46,790
well you never know what's gonna happen

3898
02:37:49,390 --> 02:37:47,330
next

3899
02:37:51,580 --> 02:37:49,400
sometimes we extend the interviews with

3900
02:37:53,890 --> 02:37:51,590
guests and sometimes we have other

3901
02:37:55,600 --> 02:37:53,900
guests we never know until it happens

3902
02:37:59,171 --> 02:37:55,610
and that's always something spectacular

3903
02:38:01,841 --> 02:37:59,181
and Kevin Randle will be back on this

3904
02:38:04,000 --> 02:38:01,851
week's episode of after the power cast

3905
02:38:06,551 --> 02:38:04,010
don't miss it we only offer it if you

3906
02:38:09,250 --> 02:38:06,561
subscribe to the power cast + @ + doctor

3907
02:38:13,000 --> 02:38:09,260
power cast calm that's + dot the power

3908
02:38:16,210 --> 02:38:13,010
cast calm and by the way we also offer a

3909
02:38:18,850 --> 02:38:16,220
version of this show without the network

3910
02:38:21,820 --> 02:38:18,860
ads with better quality audio and you'll

3911
02:38:28,091 --> 02:38:21,830
hear Kevin Randle move his earphone with

3912
02:38:29,831 --> 02:38:28,101
pristine quality they changed his name

3913
02:38:33,041 --> 02:38:29,841
to itchy yours

3914
02:38:35,440 --> 02:38:33,051
okay Plus that the para cast outcomes

3915
02:38:36,911 --> 02:38:35,450
seriously Kevin Randall thank you so

3916
02:38:38,980 --> 02:38:36,921
much for joining us on the para cast

3917
02:38:41,550 --> 02:38:38,990
they enjoyed every minute of it

3918
02:38:53,760 --> 02:38:41,560
except for talking to Chris O'Brien

3919
02:39:00,279 --> 02:38:57,250
the para cast featuring gene Steinberg

3920
02:39:03,149 --> 02:39:00,289
and Christopher O'Brien is a copyrighted

3921
02:39:07,090 --> 02:39:03,159
presentation of making the impossible